16 V 10 Stand - i18

[Memphis10Tigers]

For any indices that have a value of 0 your supposed to play basic strategy when the running count is 0. Also, from what I understand, basic strategy is created through simulators running billions of hands. Therefore they consider hand composition, because 16 vs. 10 needs to be dealt a high card the average running count after being dealt this hand is -1. If your playing the indices correctly and playing all you will be hitting those hands slightly more often then standing.

I think I got everything. Is that all correct?

That makes sense. Assuming BS is developed in consideration of hand composition and you are counting cards, then you would do the following for 10,6 vs. 10:

In Theory: STAND if TC = 0 and RC = 0 or greater
HIT if TC = 0 and RC= -1 or less

In Practice: Always stand on 16 at TC=0 regardless of the running count in order to avoid heat.

 

[bigplayer]

I am switching over to Hi-Lo and I18 from R7.

This page says 0 is the index to stand on 16 V 10. Does that mean except negative counts you always stand on 16 V 10? I logically think it should be higher.

http://www.bjmath.com/bjmath/tcindex/i18index.htm (Archive copy)

At 0 or Higher Stand. Why would you think it should be higher? Remember basic strategy does not assume a true count of 0.

 

[bj bob]

The bolded part is impossible. The dealer's T up makes the count negative, and there is no two-card 16 that will bring it back up to zero.

Agreed. BS already accounts for that.

 

[Sharky]

simply use running count for 16 v 10...>=0 stand, <0 you hit.

i also disagree with those who "always" stand citing the correct play when large bets are out as SD and DD, which I mostly play, are VERY VOLATILE when there's just 1/2 to 1/4 decks remaining (each high card is 2-4 TC points) and there's paint everywhere on the board the count can VERY easily tank quickly

 

[Shoofly]

Are you saying even with a 6 deck game, you'd play a composition dependent strategy, or only if the count is negative would I use this? Sorry I don't follow completely. If I had 10-2 versus 4, and the TC+1, would I still stand?

thanks

Mr. Renzey, are you there. Check out the "Doctor Pepper Rule" on Page 91 of "Blackjack Bluebook II."

 

[tthree]

I guess I am just confused as to why Basic Strategy has you Hit 16 Vs. 10 and Stand on 12 Vs. 4 when the Illustrious 18 indices have you doing the exact opposite at TC = 0, which is what you essentially start off with at the top of a shoe.

The dealer is more likely to bust with a 4 than with a 10. Either hand if you stand you need the dealer to bust. The other factor in the hit/stand decision on your stiff hand is how likely you are to bust. The first hand after the shuffle the cards in a 16 V T match up are always have a negative TC while the cards in a 12 v 4 always have a non negative TC.

 

[noblackjackhack]

I added it to my amazon cart. Thanks for the info. I've also looked into other postings related to it, now that I know what Im looking for. Your post was very helpful. Thank you!

 

[Memphis10Tigers]

The dealer is more likely to bust with a 4 than with a 10. Either hand if you stand you need the dealer to bust. The other factor in the hit/stand decision on your stiff hand is how likely you are to bust. The first hand after the shuffle the cards in a 16 V T match up are always have a negative TC while the cards in a 12 v 4 always have a non negative TC.

That makes sense. After reading more on how Basic Strategy is calculated (total dependent vs. composition dependant) I understand why there is a difference between the BS decision vs. the True Count decision on 10 V 6 and 12 V4.

It is interesting to me that even the most novice player could easily glance at all of the other cards on the table to identify if there are more face cards or low cards in play to sway his/her decision one way or the other for a more accurate play.

 

[Shoofly]

It is interesting to me that even the most novice player could easily glance at all of the other cards on the table to identify if there are more face cards or low cards in play to sway his/her decision one way or the other for a more accurate play.

It is also good when you make an index play and someone questions it. You can say "Didn't you see all those big cards on the table?" or "Didn't you see all those small cards on the table?" They usually won't remember what cards were on the table.

 

[Sharky]

i certainly would not say anything even remotely sounding like counting, but then again I very rarely respond to comments with anything more than a smile

 

[Renzey]

Mr. Renzey, are you there. Check out the "Doctor Pepper Rule" on Page 91 of "Blackjack Bluebook II."

When BJBBII was first printed, the standard game was considered to be S17. Even with 6 decks, if it's S17, a basic strategy perfectionist should hit 10/2 vs 4 -- but stand with 7/5, 8/4 or 9/3 as well as any multi-card 12.
Notice the difference between holding 10/2 and 7/5. With the 10/2, one of your busting cards and one useless card have been killed, making it easier for you to hit. With the 7/5, one of your 17's and 19's each have been taken away, making it tougher for you to hit. Also notice that off the top of this six deck shoe, with the 10/2 vs 4, the Halves TC is +.08. But with the 7/5 vs 4, the TC is +.50.

With all that said, in the now popular H17 game, you should stand even with the 10/2, unless the TC reaches -1.

 

[Gamblor]

i certainly would not say anything even remotely sounding like counting, but then again I very rarely respond to comments with anything more than a smile

Actually I do when appropriate, acts as misdirection. "Surely somebody who obviously hints that their counting isn't counting?". Furthermore ploppies point out board composition all the time. I'm sure the PC hears this all the time and just rolls their eyes.

Then again, just recently sat down at a table, and a ploppy asked me if I was any good, I told her "I'm a f***ing expert". No point to that, just having some fun :grin:

 

[Lowrider]

BJ ATTACK THIRD EDITION BY DON S. indicates HITTING on any 12 v 4 when the TC is less than 0....this is for H17... I do not know the play for S17.

Also, it is possible that there might be some advanced index composition play that trumps this general rule....but the above applies for I18 indices for the H17 game per BJA 3 which is what I use

 

[tthree]

Most of the differences between H17 and S17 indices involve dealer upcards of A or 6.

 

[paddywhack]

BJ ATTACK THIRD EDITION BY DON S. indicates STANDING on any 12 v 4 when the TC is less than 0....this is for H17... I do not know the play for S17.

You sure about that?????

 

[Lowrider]

Meant hitting changed thanks

 

[Gamblor]

S17 index for 12 v 4 is 0. I would have though H17, the index would be slightly lower than S17, like -1.

 

[Lowrider]

BJA 3 has a table around page 240 or so listing the I18 and I think also F4 indexes for Both H17 and S17 rules for the following games:

6&8 decks
Single deck
Double deck

The index for 12 v 4 in a six or eight deck game is the same 12 v 4 TC <= 0 is a HIT. I will tell you that the way I play it is anything below 0 is a HIT but if it's right on the nose and TC=0 I STAY even though the correct play is to HIT IMHO.

I do not have the book in front of me but I do have the flash cards I made directly copying from BJA 3 for H17 for 8 deck shoes and that's what my index card says.

I'll confirm tonight with the page number for Don's book.

 

[FLASH1296]

Basic Strategy — S17

Hit 12 vs. 4 with 6 decks or less.

At 6 decks there is hardly a significant difference.

 

[Gamblor]

I do not have the book in front of me but I do have the flash cards I made directly copying from BJA 3 for H17 for 8 deck shoes and that's what my index card says.

I'll confirm tonight with the page number for Don's book.

Cool, I'd be curious to learn. I actually never bothered to look up the difference between S17 and H17. Since the +1 decisions of A7 v 2, A8 v 6 and 11 v A goes from stand/stand/hit to double from S17 to H17, I just follow the general rule of thumb that we should subtract roughly 1 for any decision v A-6. This is just my lazy approach.