2 or 3 top tips for a counter returning to the game

[psyduck]

fungusAmongus:

Talk to others at the table. Don't look like a counter.

FD

What does a counter look like?

 

[Finn Dog]

What does a counter look like?

It's all in Cellini's book. But I don't just mean appearance (it's also how you look from above, how you act)--but rest assured profiling is alive and well in the surveillance world.

Some of the traits surveillance look for as to who to run a Survey Voice on are:

1. Player, 2-3 day beard growth (male only, we hope).

2. Player wears a ball cap, keeps it pulled down to eye level.

3. Player always has one hand covering half of his face at all times.

4. Player shows inordinate interest in all the cards on the table, never talks to anyone.

5. Player orders bottled water, coffee or soda--never drinks alcohol like most everyone else.

6. Player orders 1 bottle of beer and makes it last his whole session.

7. Player slips black or higher into his pocket when he thinks no-one is looking.

8. Player requests to be rated, but does not have his driver's license only a credit card.

9. Player spreads to 2 or 3 hands only on high positive counts.

10 Player makes obvious basic strategy mistakes or incorrect insurance moves only when a suit is applying heat.

11. Player moves his lips with the count.

12. Player always sits at 3rd base.

13. Player always dresses the part for his action (never dresses down--most high net worth people try to hide their wealth, not flaunt it).

14. Player enters mid-shoe with large cash wagers, wins a few hands, then leaves.

15. Player buys in for large amounts.

Plus many more.

Cellini says you must always remember, just because there's loud music blaring, slots clanging, and people generally acting crazy, that doesn't mean a lone surveillance observer isn't concentrating on you in complete silence, and only you and your play.

FD

 

[kewljason]

You don't think he can make $260,000 a year playing BJ with a $100,000 BR?

I most certainly don't think he can! Not with a top bet of $400, playing 3-5 hours per day. And no offense to fungusAmongus, but not someone just getting back into the game after being away 20 years. $260,000 seems an unrealistic goal. How many solo players earn $260,000 per year? Very, Very few, if any. And how many of those very very few do so by straight counting? I would venture to guess noone.

 

[kewljason]

I agree with kewljason. He never said he wanted to live off of $500/wk. He never said he intended to live on $500/wk or that $500/wk would replace his previous income. He has money set aside for living expenses from the buyout. He just wants to pursue a hobby (music) and thinks that $500/wk might be a reasonable expected earning rate. It has nothing to do with his desire to play blackjack. The only think I had a problem with was where he said playing BJ should earn him 10x that amount. Based on kewljason's 2009 results for playing full time at about the same stakes, I think that the OP is grossly overestimating his BJ earning potential.

I agree with your premise that he is grossly overestimating his BJ earning potential, however, I don't think my 2009 results are any reflection of what he may be able to achieve. My 2009 spread was $25-$300, not $400, and three quarters of my play in 2009 took place on the east coast. (substandard games) There are much better games to be had in Vegas. I think the poster could do considerably better than my results. I know I am planning on it!

 

[fungusAmongus]

guys...i am simply in awe of this thread..this is SO MUCH more informative and interesting then i could have ever hoped for. i want to thank each and every one of you for contributing to it.

Wong's book has expected win and ROR formula's, so my (laughable) initial guess of $5k per week was grossly wrong...i am working on some simulations using -2 to +12 strategy plays and a 1-12 spread that should give me a decent idea of what to expect.

THANKS for that list of typical counter behaviors...the one thing i feel i've become very good at over the 20 years of amateur play is camo, i talk to the dealers, i ask the table for playing help, i order drinks etc etc

 

[Billy C1]

To surveillance it's all about bet size variance and the "cover" you mention doesn't do any good there.

BillyC1

 

[Finn Dog]

...i order drinks etc etc

Order the drinks, but don't drink the booze

FD

 

[Sucker]

To surveillance it's all about bet size variance and the "cover" you mention doesn't do any good there.

BillyC1

This is a good point. However, I believe that table comportment DOES help somewhat.

There is a very good book out that covers this subject very well. It's written by an ex-surveillance operator, and he talks about the inside operation of casinos, and gives many tips on how they catch counters and cheats (Which unfortunately, they lump right in with counters).

Right now I'm 2000 miles away from my home and gambling library, and I can't remember the exact name of the book. The name is something like "Casino surveillance for the card counter". It can be found at the Gamblers Book Store on Tropicana, it costs about $100; but if you're a serious card counter it's WELL worth the money.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Order the drinks, but don't drink the booze

FD

Or even better, drink the booze! It's part of your compensation. :toast:

Seriously, if you normally drink, no reason to stop at the table and if you normally don't drink, no reason to start. Just don't get too drunk. My rule is not to drink more than I would be able to legally drive with.

 

[Finn Dog]

There is a very good book out that covers this subject very well...The name is something like "Casino surveillance for the card counter".

This is the book by Cellini I've been referencing.

FD

 

[Billy C1]

This is a good point. However, I believe that table comportment DOES help somewhat.

There is a very good book out that covers this subject very well. It's written by an ex-surveillance operator, and he talks about the inside operation of casinos, and gives many tips on how they catch counters and cheats (Which unfortunately, they lump right in with counters).

Right now I'm 2000 miles away from my home and gambling library, and I can't remember the exact name of the book. The name is something like "Casino surveillance for the card counter". It can be found at the Gamblers Book Store on Tropicana, it costs about $100; but if you're a serious card counter it's WELL worth the money.

I was interested until you said $100! (Is it really that much?)

 

[fungusAmongus]

Order the drinks, but don't drink the booze

FD

exactly...and as far as bet spread goes, i just dont think that a 300 max bet on the strip is really that big of a deal. like i said i played for 6 days, 6 hours a day at the Red Rock last year and took a couple of trips to the strip...nobody even gave me the l

i think the casinos are so desperate for money players these day that they aren't really in the business of barring players much...i may be wrong but time will tell.

i have a lot of work to do...i take counting and the whole attempt to make money very seriously. AGAIN THANKS FOR ALL THE INPUT ITS BEEN A REAL EYE-OPENER!

 

[kewljason]

i think the casinos are so desperate for money players these day that they aren't really in the business of barring players much...i may be wrong but time will tell.

I wouldn't count on this. Just because you played with some longevity at Red Rock during one trip for whatever reason, doesn't really mean anything.

While the casino's are desperate for players, they are looking for losing players. If they think you are a winning player, they will barr you without a second thought. Will probably back you off a few times first though.

 

[Sucker]

I was interested until you said $100! (Is it really that much?)

I thought the same thing, until a friend loaned me his copy. After reading it, I can now say that this book will save you TONS of heartache, which in the gambling world, translates into $$. This book will more than pay for itself in one day.

 

[Tarzan]

Amused

Originally Posted by Thunder, "I could make $25,000 on that $100,000 in one day, no joke. A whole year, easy as pie. If you don't believe me, just look at my market prediction thread in "anything else"."

This is quite a bold claim! Talk is cheap though, so hypothetically speaking of course, let's say you have a guy that shows up at 5AM with $100,000 and tells you that by days end, if you can make it into $125,000 you get to keep $12,500 for your efforts. He shows you the .45 auto in his belt and explains that he will be spending the day with you and should you fall short on this endeavor, not only do you NOT get the $12,500 but he will pump 5 rounds into your genital area, leaving you to deal with that for a few hours before he plants the last 2 rounds in the magazine through your forehead. Are you THAT sure of yourself?

Originally posted by Shadrock, "In all seriousness, advance me the $100,000. I'll give you $550 a week guaranteed (10% more than you are looking for) and you'll need do nothing. At the end of five years, you'll get your entire $100,000 back in one lump sum."

This reminds me of LiquidChips/Cipher a little bit... ("Give me $20,000 and I will produce you a steady rate of "X" per month, blah blah blah" and that was the last that LiquidChips ever saw of his $20,000). That is an outrageously nice interest rate! Hell, I would do it if you were good for it considering what I make on a few other investments. The problem: Being good for it. There are actually people in NYC that would be happy to give you $100,000 for that sort of "vig" per week. They are also the sort of people that will have every detail of your life together to include your relatives, family members, your assets and there would be serious issues if you fell short of the mark. Hypothetically speaking of course, would you stake your life and the lives of your family members on paying this interest and be willing to sign over some assets as collateral on the principal? If so, these sorts of people are easy enough to find in NYC. Thunder can also easily find some of these people but with that sort of skill and ingenuity to score 25% on a given sum of money in one day, I'm sure that with the sort of millions that he has laying around from that sort of action/ability he does not need their lousy $100,000.

Personal debts are a bitch. I have had the vast majority of personal debts to me go unpaid in my life (for pathetically small sums even!) by people that swore to pay me back, people I had known for years and even gave me specific timeframe details on paying me back. What is the mentality of such a thing? Do they figure, "Oh hell, he has plenty of money and more than me so it's no big deal if I stiff him for it?" I'm not sure... but to me it's the principle of the thing, regardless of the amount. On a few occasions I have gone to "Plan B" if the amount indebted to me warranted it... there is actually lots of quite legal recourse and action that can be taken if you are willing to put the additional cash toward the effort. The truly sad part is that these were people I knew well and thought somewhat trustworthy! They did not like "Plan B" as it was more costly to both them and me but it's the principle of the thing once again and they would have been better off paying the debt.

I don't loan even 10 cents on a personal loan to anyone for any reason due to past experiences and the extreme difficulty in collecting personal debt... I don't like excuses, I don't like "Plan B". Someone tries to whack me for $100,000 and it's seems to me I would definately be thinking about "Plan C". I never want to allow myself into any situation that I have to consider... "Plan C".

 

[muppet]

note to self: don't borrow from tarzan

 

[shadroch]

Originally Posted by Thunder, "I could make $25,000 on that $100,000 in one day, no joke. A whole year, easy as pie. If you don't believe me, just look at my market prediction thread in "anything else"."

This is quite a bold claim! Talk is cheap though, so hypothetically speaking of course, let's say you have a guy that shows up at 5AM with $100,000 and tells you that by days end, if you can make it into $125,000 you get to keep $12,500 for your efforts. He shows you the .45 auto in his belt and explains that he will be spending the day with you and should you fall short on this endeavor, not only do you NOT get the $12,500 but he will pump 5 rounds into your genital area, leaving you to deal with that for a few hours before he plants the last 2 rounds in the magazine through your forehead. Are you THAT sure of yourself?

Originally posted by Shadrock, "In all seriousness, advance me the $100,000. I'll give you $550 a week guaranteed (10% more than you are looking for) and you'll need do nothing. At the end of five years, you'll get your entire $100,000 back in one lump sum."

This reminds me of LiquidChips/Cipher a little bit... ("Give me $20,000 and I will produce you a steady rate of "X" per month, blah blah blah" and that was the last that LiquidChips ever saw of his $20,000). That is an outrageously nice interest rate! Hell, I would do it if you were good for it considering what I make on a few other investments. The problem: Being good for it. There are actually people in NYC that would be happy to give you $100,000 for that sort of "vig" per week. They are also the sort of people that will have every detail of your life together to include your relatives, family members, your assets and there would be serious issues if you fell short of the mark. Hypothetically speaking of course, would you stake your life and the lives of your family members on paying this interest and be willing to sign over some assets as collateral on the principal? If so, these sorts of people are easy enough to find in NYC. Thunder can also easily find some of these people but with that sort of skill and ingenuity to score 25% on a given sum of money in one day, I'm sure that with the sort of millions that he has laying around from that sort of action/ability he does not need their lousy $100,000.

Personal debts are a bitch. I have had the vast majority of personal debts to me go unpaid in my life (for pathetically small sums even!) by people that swore to pay me back, people I had known for years and even gave me specific timeframe details on paying me back. What is the mentality of such a thing? Do they figure, "Oh hell, he has plenty of money and more than me so it's no big deal if I stiff him for it?" I'm not sure... but to me it's the principle of the thing, regardless of the amount. On a few occasions I have gone to "Plan B" if the amount indebted to me warranted it... there is actually lots of quite legal recourse and action that can be taken if you are willing to put the additional cash toward the effort. The truly sad part is that these were people I knew well and thought somewhat trustworthy! They did not like "Plan B" as it was more costly to both them and me but it's the principle of the thing once again and they would have been better off paying the debt.

I don't loan even 10 cents on a personal loan to anyone for any reason due to past experiences and the extreme difficulty in collecting personal debt... I don't like excuses, I don't like "Plan B". Someone tries to whack me for $100,000 and it's seems to me I would definately be thinking about "Plan C". I never want to allow myself into any situation that I have to consider... "Plan C".

Very nice. Thank you for comparing me to a known thief. Am I good for it?
Show me the money and I'll give you the references you'd need to make an informed decision.Those returns are small compared to what the investors in my last club earned. Is there a small risk involved? Of course. Is there even a one percent chance I'll abscond with the money? I have a verifiable track record that says no.
As far as your friends not paying you back, I'd look at it as a small price to pay to get rid of someone who isn't really a friend and is a loser to boot.
It's like splitting tens to chase some anal loudmouth from your table. It cost a bit but is well worth it in the long run.
BTW- the cost of money on the street these days is 3% a week. That would be $3,000 per on the amount mentioned, not $550. In fact, that would leave me a $2450 profit.

 

[fungusAmongus]

note to self: Don't borrow from tarzan

lol! +1

 

[Tarzan]

Plan C

Sorry, Shad... you're a friend and I like you too much to even risk a less than 1% chance of... "Plan C".

Back to the original idea in this post! I know, call me crazy for going against standard procedure since we never stay focused on a given subject but CreepingPanther said, "Start slow, do not be greedy and don't get carried away with the life style. That is live clean, beware of scammers, users, players, and that includes scheming women." Read up on little things here and there on this site like that, things that go way beyond just the function and math of it all. Learn about the definition of "trick roll" to avoid having to find out what that is first hand and little things like what CreepingPanther is talking about there.

We are all here to help each other learn and become better players. I learn lots of new things all the time on here and some of the advice, words of wisdom, intelligence gathering data and nifty little things on this site have helped me become a better and more knowledgeable player.

 

[shadroch]

Sorry, Shad... you're a friend and I like you too much to even risk a less than 1% chance of... "Plan C".

Back to the original idea in this post! I know, call me crazy for going against standard procedure since we never stay focused on a given subject but CreepingPanther said, "Start slow, do not be greedy and don't get carried away with the life style. That is live clean, beware of scammers, users, players, and that includes scheming women." Read up on little things here and there on this site like that, things that go way beyond just the function and math of it all. Learn about the definition of "trick roll" to avoid having to find out what that is first hand and little things like what CreepingPanther is talking about there.

We are all here to help each other learn and become better players. I learn lots of new things all the time on here and some of the advice, words of wisdom, intelligence gathering data and nifty little things on this site have helped me become a better and more knowledgeable player.

Would you go "Plan C" on a stockbroker? What would be any different? No investment is 100% sure.