6deck H17, 8deck S17, or throw myself from ledge of bridge?

[BUZZARD]

Even if you choose to the latter, which would you play before you died, if you must. I am using KO backcounting the terrifying bowels of atlantic city's underbelly and I have these two jems available to me.O and I had other noob questions too.

As far as I can tell, Borgata has the only decent game in town and it is only in one of the many pits there. Wonderfully, it is not a high limit area, although it is different from all other pits because it is 25 mins and NMSE. This presents two problems for me.

1. I can no longer stand over the table, arms crossed with a "ya im countin down your damn table what the hell are you gonna do about it" look on my face. and
2. Im gunna need more money to attack this game.

Besides this bad news there is good news to. This is the Borgata and the Borgata is frickin niiiiiiice. best of all there are many tables open even early morning so aggressive wonging can be done.My concerns:

My Spread: If I can get a stake together, which is my dream, and may come to fruition in a few months, I was considering giving this a go. Can I get away with a 25-200 spread with aggressive wonging?? Or am i just kidding myself and need 1-12 or more? Keep in mind I do not need a huge hourly expectation. 15$/ hour would be considered a success to me.

My roll: the reason I am being so stingy is cus my roll makes even the 200 top bet seem like im pushing it. Im thinking I will be lucky to have 20k and if only 15k I assume my ROR would be frightening.I am willing to accept even 5% to play this game over the inferior offerings.

Thank for considering

 

[blackjacktilt]

I've never been to AC and from what I hear on this site, it's not worth it.
There is plenty of info pertaining to trip reports as recent as a few days ago.
If no one responds or you don't get the answer you like, search the site.
Trip reports will give you pen details, details on where to go, what time and heat info.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Good ideas you have there- but there is one very important word missing from your post. Everyone here who has seen me discuss this already knows what that word is.

Pay no heed to the H17, S17, 6D or 8D in Atlantic City. It doesn't matter that much. What you are looking for is penetration. That is what differentiates a good shoe game from a bad one. You're going to be walking around the Boardwalk (forget the Borgata, when the pen is bad you'll be far away from any good games) and looking for one or more dealers cutting out 1.25 decks or less. You'll eventually find it, and that's where you're going to play. If you lose your pen, walk away and find someplace else to play.

Backcount if possible. If not, Wong out of bad counts- there is no reason to be playing any kind of negative count in AC. Recommend using some form of true count for these games because it facilitates Wonging in and out and you don't have to worry about using different numbers for 6D and 8D. Knowing the strike point for the Lucky Ladies sidebet will add a few dollars an hour to your win rate for low additional risk. Your $25-$200 spread is more than enough to get your $15 per hour and you should be able to clear double that.

 

[kewljason]

Even if you choose to the latter, which would you play before you died, if you must. I am using KO backcounting the terrifying bowels of atlantic city's underbelly and I have these two jems available to me.O and I had other noob questions too.

As far as I can tell, Borgata has the only decent game in town and it is only in one of the many pits there. Wonderfully, it is not a high limit area, although it is different from all other pits because it is 25 mins and NMSE. This presents two problems for me.

1. I can no longer stand over the table, arms crossed with a "ya im countin down your damn table what the hell are you gonna do about it" look on my face. and
2. Im gunna need more money to attack this game.

Besides this bad news there is good news to. This is the Borgata and the Borgata is frickin niiiiiiice. best of all there are many tables open even early morning so aggressive wonging can be done.My concerns:

My Spread: If I can get a stake together, which is my dream, and may come to fruition in a few months, I was considering giving this a go. Can I get away with a 25-200 spread with aggressive wonging?? Or am i just kidding myself and need 1-12 or more? Keep in mind I do not need a huge hourly expectation. 15$/ hour would be considered a success to me.

My roll: the reason I am being so stingy is cus my roll makes even the 200 top bet seem like im pushing it. Im thinking I will be lucky to have 20k and if only 15k I assume my ROR would be frightening.I am willing to accept even 5% to play this game over the inferior offerings.

Thank for considering

First of all the $25 tables at Borgata are 6 decks, s17. The lower limit $10 and $15 tables and lone $5 table are 8 decks, yet still s17. Nothing in Borgata is h17. At least that I am aware of. That said, often the 8 deck games are the better play. (see AM's post above for reasons)

I don't have the capability to run a sim for you at my present location, but I can assure you that a $25-$200 spread, wonging out of negative counts at -1 or -1.5 will yield more than $15 per hour. If I had to guess I would say at least 1 unit ($25) per hour. There! I have almost assured someone will run a sim for you just to try to prove me wrong. :laugh:

 

[NightStalker]

25-200 would do well

Just wong out, go to restroom at True Count < -2

 

[duanedibley]

I don't have the capability to run a sim for you at my present location, but I can assure you that a $25-$200 spread, wonging out of negative counts at -1 or -1.5 will yield more than $15 per hour. If I had to guess I would say at least 1 unit ($25) per hour.

If this is the case, I would seriously question whether it is worth it. The swings will be absolutely awful. I play with the same max bet but twice the EV per hour, and I am still trying to figure out if I should really be playing at all.

 

[kewljason]

If this is the case, I would seriously question whether it is worth it. The swings will be absolutely awful. I play with the same max bet but twice the EV per hour, and I am still trying to figure out if I should really be playing at all.

"whether it is worth it" is a whole other can of worms. That's something that each individual will have to decide for himself based on his own situation, finances, needs, time and effort involved, ect. What one person finds acceptable another won't. I know a guy that plays a few hours 4 or 5 days a week spreading 1-2 units basically playing for comps with an EV of about 5 bucks an hour. Seems like an aweful waste of time and energy to me, but he is delighted with his results. At the same time I know a few players that think I am wasting my time and energy, and working way too hard for a very mediocre living that I make, but it suits me fine. :laugh: To each his own.

 

[Zero]

Knowing the strike point for the Lucky Ladies sidebet will add a few dollars an hour to your win rate

Isn't this Hi-Lo TC +7 (6D/8D)?

0

 

[tensplitter]

How much do you bet on the Lucky Ladies once you hit the strike point? The max allowed?

 

[Ferretnparrot]

Iv played 25-200 many times, but when i do, I am sure to do it on NMS tables so that you can spread to two hands and alter your exposure to the cards while other players are at the table.

Check out trump plaza for 6d s17 nms tables but beware mediocre pen, shop dealers a bit.

check out resorts they have two 6d games

check out hilton for good games


pm me if you want to meet up there and play, im there frequently.

In regards to lucky ladies, the max bet is 25 dollars, so its not goign to kill you. The breakeven TC varies for 6d and 8d games it is lower for the 8 deck games.

 

[BUZZARD]

well woopity doo

Hey yall, thanks for the replies- I appreciate this feedback. Monkey- I was foolish not to mention PEN I knew I had left out this consideration. However I am under the impression that I cannot shop around the $10 minimum tables like I could have before dropping a 1 -20 spread because they moved the 8 deckers to H17. Now talk about the straw that broke the camels back. I just won't play it. The difference between 6 deck S17 and 8 deck H17 is juicy and I will play the borgata 6 deckers with mediocre pen before I give in to their evilness.
As far as whether it is worth it- lol ill be working on a line cooking sliders and cracking oysters for $11 an hour if Im lucky. Actually in this economy, about to lose my current job, I am imagining the horror of microwaving pancakes at 5 in the morning for minimum wage. The comment about having $200 max bet at TWICE my EV- well according to estimates put forth- this would be averaging 2 units ($50) or more hourly? How is this not worth it? Did u quit your job as a dentist or something? You must be running on the left side of the bell curve maybe? It must just be the variance?

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Hey yall, thanks for the replies- I appreciate this feedback. Monkey- I was foolish not to mention PEN I knew I had left out this consideration. However I am under the impression that I cannot shop around the $10 minimum tables like I could have before dropping a 1 -20 spread because they moved the 8 deckers to H17. Now talk about the straw that broke the camels back. I just won't play it. The difference between 6 deck S17 and 8 deck H17 is juicy and I will play the borgata 6 deckers with mediocre pen before I give in to their evilness.

Then you're playing with a goal other than making money, and I can't help you with that. The difference between 6D, 8D, H17, and S17 is diddly squat (excuse the technical terminology) if you are playing correctly, while bad pen will make any game a waste of time. Too many people are hypnotized by the fake breasts of the Borgata, and I consider the place rarely worth even visiting. If breasts are your goal, there are plenty of drunk girls at Trop and Showboat who have real ones that you can ultimately do more than just look at. But I don't recommend mixing such activities into AP missions.

As far as whether it is worth it- lol ill be working on a line cooking sliders and cracking oysters for $11 an hour if Im lucky. Actually in this economy, about to lose my current job, I am imagining the horror of microwaving pancakes at 5 in the morning for minimum wage. The comment about having $200 max bet at TWICE my EV- well according to estimates put forth- this would be averaging 2 units ($50) or more hourly? How is this not worth it? Did u quit your job as a dentist or something? You must be running on the left side of the bell curve maybe? It must just be the variance?

I think $50 an hour is worth it especially if you include the inevitable comps. The problem is that an $11 per hour worker usually does not have a BR sufficient to pursue $50 per hour as an AP. Even if he inherited or was awarded a large sum it is not replenishable for him and losing his savings means a diminished quality of life that may be permanent.

 

[Deleted member 3273]

Back counting

Well, right now I am traveling through the South East wonging using 1/2 kelly. It seems they know, but like I said before knowing their tolerance level can keep you in the game without them worrying to much. I am in the counting business fulltime. Yes is it a roaler coaster but knowing to walk away being disciplined thinking percentages and not money will keep you in the game. Becoming a bigger player when BR is growing must go along with the act and a new novelty id. They look for a reason why you betting black, so dress up like a business man. Right now I am walking with fake crutches to gain their sympaty.OMG :laugh:

 

[pit15]

My advice for atlantic city is to spread min-max until they back you off, then go to Pennsylvania where there's actually a decent game.

 

[duanedibley]

The comment about having $200 max bet at TWICE my EV- well according to estimates put forth- this would be averaging 2 units ($50) or more hourly? How is this not worth it? Did u quit your job as a dentist or something? You must be running on the left side of the bell curve maybe? It must just be the variance?

If you are going to play professionally you will certainly hit a very bad run sooner or later. If you don't mind putting in months of effort and having nothing to show for it (and in fact being worse off than where you were before), then this might be the job for you!

Your bankroll will also need to be enormous relative to your max bet. Since you will be taking living expenses out of it your ROR will be much higher than if you were allowing it to grow with your win-rate. I would also not even consider going pro with less than 6-months of expenses saved that you are not counting as part of your bankroll.

 

[BUZZARD]

crack head betting quarters

well in eastern PA there are no casinos offering any competition. The sugar house and Parx. what a nightmare- I LIVE next to these places but drive to AC to get the monies. I walked into sugar house on a tuesday morning with sheets of rain descending from the sky and thought maybe , just maybe there would actually be a seat. No. Each table is crammed.
And God forbid someone should be able to play a hand of blackjack without ponying up 25 bucks. WHY would they? There is a crackhead at third base that unbelievably can somehow afford to play this game- I can't. And Im crappin you negative -go there now- he's there- has been there both times I showed my face. Now I lived with my wife in a house right in south philly projects and I know my crackheads- this dood had a little push cart and does not bathe. I watched him to see if I could come away with any little nuggets of wisdom of the game, as surely to have risen from certainly nothing to the vast bounty of loot he now had required skill and a watchful eye. He stood on a 15 vs a queen and I walked out into the rain.
There is no surrender and unless I can figure a way to tell my wife why im sneaking out of bed at 1:45 AM each morning i wont be seeing any 15$ tables.

Monkey- point taken- but i am very confused here and a bit angry. I played alot of poker and blackjack at the trop and I have failed to see inebriated females. Perhaps you are confused. But this is not the purpose of the thread, nor the forum.
What struck me is when you made the comment to something of the effect of ' when the pen goes bad at the borg u will have no where to go'. Im trying to grasp this. When and why would pen change. I assumed it is constant with some dealers cutting a bit more and some cutting lousy. Sure it might change as people come and go but they aren't directed to worsen pen sometimes are they? Would it be a viable strategy to study all the dealers (there are like 15 tables in this pit) and follow the good ones and avoid the bad?
Now I don't know- this is why I asked and I will hunt for good penetration instead if i get my roll but I am a bit suprised- does anyone have a different opinion. Would anyone play the S17 6 decker borgata pit instead of hunting thru H17 8 deckers on the boardwalk? The penetration issue confuses me. I understand that GOOD pen makes a very large difference- but as long as its not BAD-i mean i can certainly get 75% -is this not good enough?
And dood- crutches? Teach me- I want to learn

 

[Automatic Monkey]

...Monkey- point taken- but i am very confused here and a bit angry. I played alot of poker and blackjack at the trop and I have failed to see inebriated females. Perhaps you are confused. But this is not the purpose of the thread, nor the forum.
What struck me is when you made the comment to something of the effect of ' when the pen goes bad at the borg u will have no where to go'. Im trying to grasp this. When and why would pen change. I assumed it is constant with some dealers cutting a bit more and some cutting lousy. Sure it might change as people come and go but they aren't directed to worsen pen sometimes are they? Would it be a viable strategy to study all the dealers (there are like 15 tables in this pit) and follow the good ones and avoid the bad?
Now I don't know- this is why I asked and I will hunt for good penetration instead if i get my roll but I am a bit suprised- does anyone have a different opinion. Would anyone play the S17 6 decker borgata pit instead of hunting thru H17 8 deckers on the boardwalk? The penetration issue confuses me. I understand that GOOD pen makes a very large difference- but as long as its not BAD-i mean i can certainly get 75% -is this not good enough?
And dood- crutches? Teach me- I want to learn

Usually at the Borgata ALL of the dealers are cutting off 2 decks or more. If you find one who isn't, you're going to have to haunt his table and you're going to get half-shoed or flat-bet, or he's going to come back from break having been told to cut off more. Now think of it this way: let's say I'm staying at Bally's, get in my car, drive to Borgata, walk in and find the pen is awful, find my car, get back to the Boardwalk, I've just wasted an hour. But if I'm on the BW, if I can't find what I'm looking for in one store the next one is 5-10 minutes away, with different dealers, pit bosses, policies. If you look for good pen you'll find it eventually, but unless you have a scout there or something going over to the Marina stores and having to walk out is usually not worth it. Sometimes I'll take the jitney over to save time; it gets there just as fast and leaves me at the front door instead of in a parking deck.

Don't think of shoe pen in percentages. 75% is 8/2, which sucks, or 6/1.5, which is decent. 8/1.5 is decent too. Remember you are backcounting, skipping hands, and moving to new tables when the count goes bad so you aren't as worried about how long a count can stay bad as much as how long it can stay good. This is wholesale blackjack- volume and speed is your game. As a rule- anything more than 2 decks cut off stay away from, and anything 1.25 decks or less you don't give up that seat, even as you take lammers for bad counts.

 

[riggler]

Monkey,

75% pen @ a 4 deck game is pretty decent pen correct?

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Monkey,

75% pen @ a 4 deck game is pretty decent pen correct?

Yes, that's 1 deck. Excellent for 4 to 8 decks. But unplayable for 2 decks.

 

[Polarbearsolvent]

Aggressively hunting for penetration is certainly key. Also, look for gems everywhere, you never know what you can find. AM makes good points about the Boardwalk, although depending on your demographic it might be easier to "fit in" at the Borg as well, although they do not offer Lucky Ladies. Sure it is +EV at a pretty monster count (turns around at +6 TC in Hi-Lo, +7 and beyond it is pretty staggering EV), but hey it is an advantage that gets pretty significant.

Also, I would say give PA more of a shot. If KO is your system of choice, you are already set up nice to hit Parx. The rules are pretty amazing compared to AC ( 6D LS DAS S17 all state mandated other than decks). The crowding might be an issue, but since they are your backyard, give em a shot (and the itables are interesting, but be careful of course).

I would also highly, highly suggest CVCX. The software is under a 100 bucks and will give you more information that you thought possible. Most importantly, you get bet ramps for your bankroll, expected returns, risk of ruin etc. It is really an amazing tool.