A Tip on Tipping
- Thread starter apex
- Start date
Look here's my take on tipping, do it if you want, but if you play this game as a business there is no need to tip as if its a service industry. Its not for a pro or those that try to play like one. Its business and the dealer is not part of a leisure expense like dining out or something similar. I am there to extract money and I don't care one bit about who flips the cards for me. Now of course its been talked about how overtipping allows certain courtesies, and on the rare occasion that may be true, but it also can lead to a collusion charge so the benefit is SEVERELY overstated.
I will give an example of how it works much better just the opposite. I buy in at this table one time at what I have deemed to be a very beatable dealer. I buy in for a certain amount and within 30 mins I have 5 times my buy in sitting in front of me. I have tipped nothing to this point and its steaming the dealer and I love it. One other player sits at my table and remarks at what looks to be my good fortune. The dealer can't hold back and blurts out, yeah and the SOB hasn't tipped a nickel. Heres my chance to test him. I push him, I say anybody can give me my cards, he's not doing anything but flipping waxed paper. Dealer is fuming, won't shut up about how Karma is a bitch and how non tipping will do me in. Im laughing in his face, because the madder he gets, the weaker he gets in his dealing. The more I dig this guy, the better it is for my game, and it doesn't cost a penny. I have nothing personal against the dealer, but he allows me to manipulate the game even more heavily in my favor with his own brand of steaming. He is just a pawn in my business and I feel no need to tip him anymore than any other may feel the need to tip a coworker. Its a case by case occurence and what may work one place may not work somwhere else. Tipping as a recreational player is probably ok for most as you are playing for fun, but overtipping is highly overated and most times unnecessary.
I will give an example of how it works much better just the opposite. I buy in at this table one time at what I have deemed to be a very beatable dealer. I buy in for a certain amount and within 30 mins I have 5 times my buy in sitting in front of me. I have tipped nothing to this point and its steaming the dealer and I love it. One other player sits at my table and remarks at what looks to be my good fortune. The dealer can't hold back and blurts out, yeah and the SOB hasn't tipped a nickel. Heres my chance to test him. I push him, I say anybody can give me my cards, he's not doing anything but flipping waxed paper. Dealer is fuming, won't shut up about how Karma is a bitch and how non tipping will do me in. Im laughing in his face, because the madder he gets, the weaker he gets in his dealing. The more I dig this guy, the better it is for my game, and it doesn't cost a penny. I have nothing personal against the dealer, but he allows me to manipulate the game even more heavily in my favor with his own brand of steaming. He is just a pawn in my business and I feel no need to tip him anymore than any other may feel the need to tip a coworker. Its a case by case occurence and what may work one place may not work somwhere else. Tipping as a recreational player is probably ok for most as you are playing for fun, but overtipping is highly overated and most times unnecessary.
Very well stated Mr Maz. I couldn't agree with you more with the exception of the possibility of collusion charges. Something like that becomes pretty hard to prove. If you are just talking about tipping for better penetration, I think it would take a lot to prove that and I don't see where the player has even done anything illegal. I would say it's all on the dealer. Now if you are talking about more severe things like exposing hole cards or erroneous payoffs in exchange for tips, then yes, you are getting in way too deep. 
Enjoyable story as well. Thanx for sharing.
Enjoyable story as well. Thanx for sharing.
kewljason said:
Very well stated Mr Maz. I couldn't agree with you more with the exception of the possibility of collusion charges. Something like that becomes pretty hard to prove. If you are just talking about tipping for better penetration, I think it would take a lot to prove that and I don't see where the player has even done anything illegal. I would say it's all on the dealer. Now if you are talking about more severe things like exposing hole cards or erroneous payoffs in exchange for tips, then yes, you are getting in way too deep.
Enjoyable story as well. Thanx for sharing.
Enjoyable story as well. Thanx for sharing.
If you are tipping for penetration, it better be the kind you can slap on the ass on the way out.
i was playing blackjack with my dad awhile back and he wants to sit at some table because he thought the dealer was hot, i could honestly care less. so after playng 1/2 way though the first shoe i get a blackjack and the dealer pays me $12 on my $10 bet...i look around for a 6-5 marker anywhere and i dont see one, so i point out the dealer's mistake...turns out there 1 sign for these tables that they are all 6-5 in size 2 font...i was just about as mad as you could be at a blackjack table, stopped counting and tell my dad lets go, but he refuses to leave this table like its made of solid gold. i sit there not playing until hes ready to go, and when i color up and dont give the dealer the $2 tip i thought she was gonna bite my head off. when we walked back by there 2 hours later she was STILL bitching about people not tipping
Personally, I would have a real ethical problem with treating another human being this way, especially one who's on the low end of the totem pole economically. I might laugh in the face of a pit boss or higher rank, but I wouldn't put a working person through that ****.
On another note, to the people who say they don't have any obligation to tip, how do you think table games would be affected if no one tipped? The house would have to pay probably $12-18 an hour to keep competent people.
My guesses:
1. Higher table minimums
2. Less games open
3. More crowding at your table
4. Worse service
5. Possibly lower comps (lower margin to the house on table games= less comps to give away)
6. Fewer casinos
7. More slot machines
8. Slower dealers, especially at places that have good dealers now because the toke rate is so high
On another note, to the people who say they don't have any obligation to tip, how do you think table games would be affected if no one tipped? The house would have to pay probably $12-18 an hour to keep competent people.
My guesses:
1. Higher table minimums
2. Less games open
3. More crowding at your table
4. Worse service
5. Possibly lower comps (lower margin to the house on table games= less comps to give away)
6. Fewer casinos
7. More slot machines
8. Slower dealers, especially at places that have good dealers now because the toke rate is so high
Good thing you're not a soldier in a war zone, where you have to treat your opponent even WORSE!
In one sense, I actually AGREE with you; I ALSO have an ethical problem with treating a dealer like sh*t. When I treat a dealer this way I feel like sh*t myself. But - I also have an even BIGGER ethical problem; the fact that I'm obligated to my family to make as much money as possible (without breaking any laws; of course).
Just as it is in the game of poker; there are SOME opponents (dealers) who become real "cash cows" when something or someone puts them on tilt. In the words of the immortal John Wayne: "A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do!"
In one sense, I actually AGREE with you; I ALSO have an ethical problem with treating a dealer like sh*t. When I treat a dealer this way I feel like sh*t myself. But - I also have an even BIGGER ethical problem; the fact that I'm obligated to my family to make as much money as possible (without breaking any laws; of course).
Just as it is in the game of poker; there are SOME opponents (dealers) who become real "cash cows" when something or someone puts them on tilt. In the words of the immortal John Wayne: "A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do!"
I'm not sure anyone has an obligation to their family to make as much money as possible. Providing material support, yes, but not everything you can.
Taken to its logical conclusion, this would mean spending no time with your family, and all of your time working. We know that isn't right, or a good way to be a parent (or husband, or whatever relationship you have to your family).
Taken to its logical conclusion, this would mean spending no time with your family, and all of your time working. We know that isn't right, or a good way to be a parent (or husband, or whatever relationship you have to your family).
Ah Yes; you're right - my bad! My statement was very poorly worded, after all.
What I REALLY meant was: If I can make more money per hour, then I'll have to work less hours in order to provide financially for my family. This will free me up to spend more time with them, and provide what everyone knows are the IMPORTANT things in life - the things that YOU'RE talking about.
What I REALLY meant was: If I can make more money per hour, then I'll have to work less hours in order to provide financially for my family. This will free me up to spend more time with them, and provide what everyone knows are the IMPORTANT things in life - the things that YOU'RE talking about.
A contrarian view
I see it the opposite way. Assume the efficient market principle holds for casinos. In that case, the casinos already are offering us the worst rules they can get away with, the least comp they can get away with, and the most crowded tables they can get away with and still get action on their games. Casinos that let us resplit aces don't do it just to be charitable, you know.
Now look at what we do at the table. When I'm at the table I'm doing something dreadful that costs them between $50 and $200 per hour- that can be more than a whole pit full of blackjack tips! All it means is that the casino makes less profit. If the casino has to start paying their dealers more per hour to get them to stay (efficient markets- they already are paying the dealers as little as they can get away with) that also means the casino makes less profit. If the tips decline to the point where the dealers can't make a living (and realistically, this will not happen) it is their job to go on strike or tell their employers to either give them a raise, or deal the damned games yourself.
Now that said, I tip. Moderately, sometimes. But there has to be something in it for me, and it doesn't take very much. Just a little bit faster dealing, or an extra round of pen is all it takes to get a red chip from me.
Although I make a lot of money on dealer errors, one way a dealer can guarantee he won't get a tip from me is to make an error in my favor.
I see it the opposite way. Assume the efficient market principle holds for casinos. In that case, the casinos already are offering us the worst rules they can get away with, the least comp they can get away with, and the most crowded tables they can get away with and still get action on their games. Casinos that let us resplit aces don't do it just to be charitable, you know.
Now look at what we do at the table. When I'm at the table I'm doing something dreadful that costs them between $50 and $200 per hour- that can be more than a whole pit full of blackjack tips! All it means is that the casino makes less profit. If the casino has to start paying their dealers more per hour to get them to stay (efficient markets- they already are paying the dealers as little as they can get away with) that also means the casino makes less profit. If the tips decline to the point where the dealers can't make a living (and realistically, this will not happen) it is their job to go on strike or tell their employers to either give them a raise, or deal the damned games yourself.
Now that said, I tip. Moderately, sometimes. But there has to be something in it for me, and it doesn't take very much. Just a little bit faster dealing, or an extra round of pen is all it takes to get a red chip from me.
Although I make a lot of money on dealer errors, one way a dealer can guarantee he won't get a tip from me is to make an error in my favor.
You elitist little sh*t! You think these dealers are welfare cases? Most make decent middle class wages and don't need your pity. As a matter of fact they are the only ones at the table gauranteed to make money every night. Actually most dealers make more than the pitbosses you would choose to laugh in the face of. Yes dealers are of the working class, thus I feel no need to be truly condescending of their status such as yourself. My tactic is a ploy that allows me to work as well, as I do not feel sorry for anyone that has a job no matter what you feel the status of it may be. You may want to check your ethical code if you feel that ones social status is the weighing factor on your condescenscion.
From the little I know, most dealers are doing better than some of the APs trying to make a living. Sure, I tip, but I'm not dependent on AP for my living. If I were, I think I would be rather stingy with what part of my living I gave away to someone who was already doing better than I. In good times, some dealers (certain casinos) make better than average middle class wages for their slightly skilled labor. The skills and knowledge of my mechanic, H/AC man, tailor, electrician, home renovator, plumber, and even, grocer, are certainly greater than what is needed of a card dealer, yet they seldom get tips. A dealer is in the category of other slightly skilled and unskilled workers-- waiters, hairstylists, car valet drivers, bellmen, etc.-- that get tips, sometimes related to the jobs they do, sometimes related to their need for additional compensation just to make a living wage, and sometimes for nothing at all.
