Am I a Thief?

[adventureboy]

I was playing a good double deck game last weekend with a pretty Korean dealer named "KIM" (not her real name). There were 6 tables open in the joint, we were the only $25 table. There was an EXTREMELY offensive player that kept going from table to table, losing his shirt, and then abusing the dealer. Well, he came back to my table (for about the 4th time), hit a hard 18 against a dealer 5 (yes, he busted), and then proceeded to really lay into Kim. It was ugly--racial slurs + many curse words. I looked at Kim and said, "I can't take this guy anymore, and you don't deserve this." She said, "Can't do anything until other customers complain!" So I asked the pit boss for the shift manager. I complained to him, several players from other tables joined in. I'll cut the story short and say that 10 minutes later security was taking this guy out the door.

Now the good part. After I sat down from talking with the manager, I pushed out my one unit bet of $25. Kim said, in very broken English, "Thank you sir!" I told her "No Problem". She then looked right at me and said, "You bet more". I did not know what to say, but I increased my bet to $50 (the count was negative!) I won the hand and as Kim paid me she said "Sir, please bet more!" I bet $200 the next hand and won, let it ride and won again. Kim said "Let it ride again". I did and drew 19. She drew 5 cards to a 19 also but announced "18" and paid my push $800!!! This scared me a little--I thought I might get in trouble. I figured would play one more hand. As she dealt she flashed me her hole card!! I mean it was fast, but obvious. She had a 10 up and a 5 in the hole for 15. I doulble my hard 10 total and won when she busted!! I colored up, thanked her with a $200 tip, and hit the door.

Have I participated in a crime? Will I be comfronted with an uncomfortable situation when I visit this casino again? Anyone had anything like this happen to them before?

 

[Brutus]

"You bet more". I did not know what to say, but I increased my bet to $50 (the count was negative!)

If you knew the count was negative, why bet more?

Have I participated in a crime? Will I be comfronted with an uncomfortable situation when I visit this casino again? Anyone had anything like this happen to them before?

you will probably not be charged with a crime.

my advise: take the money and run.

btw, your post reads like one of those 30 year old letters to Penthouse magazine, are you the guy that wrote all that stuff?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penthouse_(magazine)

 

[EasyRhino]

Well, it's good that you helped the asshole tossed. He should have been escorted our for hitting a hard 18, even if he wasn't a jerk. And strangely, from a "moral" perspective, I don't think there was anything pernicious about your favor, the dealer was just doing you a solid.

But the bit where the dealer encouranged you to fire it up, and then started pulling wins out of her ass... that could really look like cheating and collusion. Not only did she encourage you to fire it up, but then she made some gross mistakes, and then you tipped her $200!. I guess there's a small chance that you could get arrested, but I'd really worry about the dealer getting fired or arrested, or both.

I'm curious as to how much of a "mechanic" the dealer was. Was she dealing seconds on the first couple of hands? She she peek at her hold card before she flashed it? I'm guessing not, but it was a pitch game, right?

PS - fake lesbians are definitely hotter than real ones, as I learned on my trip to Vegas when the lesbian convention was going on.

 

[ScottH]

I was playing a good double deck game last weekend with a pretty Korean dealer named "KIM" (not her real name). There were 6 tables open in the joint, we were the only $25 table. There was an EXTREMELY offensive player that kept going from table to table, losing his shirt, and then abusing the dealer. Well, he came back to my table (for about the 4th time), hit a hard 18 against a dealer 5 (yes, he busted), and then proceeded to really lay into Kim. It was ugly--racial slurs + many curse words. I looked at Kim and said, "I can't take this guy anymore, and you don't deserve this." She said, "Can't do anything until other customers complain!" So I asked the pit boss for the shift manager. I complained to him, several players from other tables joined in. I'll cut the story short and say that 10 minutes later security was taking this guy out the door.

Now the good part. After I sat down from talking with the manager, I pushed out my one unit bet of $25. Kim said, in very broken English, "Thank you sir!" I told her "No Problem". She then looked right at me and said, "You bet more". I did not know what to say, but I increased my bet to $50 (the count was negative!) I won the hand and as Kim paid me she said "Sir, please bet more!" I bet $200 the next hand and won, let it ride and won again. Kim said "Let it ride again". I did and drew 19. She drew 5 cards to a 19 also but announced "18" and paid my push $800!!! This scared me a little--I thought I might get in trouble. I figured would play one more hand. As she dealt she flashed me her hole card!! I mean it was fast, but obvious. She had a 10 up and a 5 in the hole for 15. I doulble my hard 10 total and won when she busted!! I colored up, thanked her with a $200 tip, and hit the door.

Have I participated in a crime? Will I be comfronted with an uncomfortable situation when I visit this casino again? Anyone had anything like this happen to them before?

It's a good thing you left. If you know the dealer is helping you out like that, I think you can get in a lot of trouble. I think collusion between a dealer and player is illegal. Even though you didn't ask her to do that, once you know she is doing it you can get into trouble. So the best thing to do, which you did, is to just walk away.

 

[Brutus]

PS - fake lesbians are definitely hotter than real ones, as I learned on my trip to Vegas when the lesbian convention was going on

Do tell! but put your reply in "anything else"

p.s. Iggy Pop is the godfather of punk.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

I was playing a good double deck game last weekend with a pretty Korean dealer named "KIM" (not her real name). There were 6 tables open in the joint, we were the only $25 table. There was an EXTREMELY offensive player that kept going from table to table, losing his shirt, and then abusing the dealer. Well, he came back to my table (for about the 4th time), hit a hard 18 against a dealer 5 (yes, he busted), and then proceeded to really lay into Kim. It was ugly--racial slurs + many curse words. I looked at Kim and said, "I can't take this guy anymore, and you don't deserve this." She said, "Can't do anything until other customers complain!" So I asked the pit boss for the shift manager. I complained to him, several players from other tables joined in. I'll cut the story short and say that 10 minutes later security was taking this guy out the door.

Now the good part. After I sat down from talking with the manager, I pushed out my one unit bet of $25. Kim said, in very broken English, "Thank you sir!" I told her "No Problem". She then looked right at me and said, "You bet more". I did not know what to say, but I increased my bet to $50 (the count was negative!) I won the hand and as Kim paid me she said "Sir, please bet more!" I bet $200 the next hand and won, let it ride and won again. Kim said "Let it ride again". I did and drew 19. She drew 5 cards to a 19 also but announced "18" and paid my push $800!!! This scared me a little--I thought I might get in trouble. I figured would play one more hand. As she dealt she flashed me her hole card!! I mean it was fast, but obvious. She had a 10 up and a 5 in the hole for 15. I doulble my hard 10 total and won when she busted!! I colored up, thanked her with a $200 tip, and hit the door.

Have I participated in a crime? Will I be comfronted with an uncomfortable situation when I visit this casino again? Anyone had anything like this happen to them before?

You have not participated in a crime. You were just minding your own business playing your own game, and took advantage of a dealer error just like any other AP would, and it has been firmly established by the courts that AP tactics are legal.

However you made one really serious mistake. You tipped her. A $200 tip? You realize there is no way that is going to escape scrutiny, especially if this is a place where dealers keep their own tips. And they are going to roll back the tape, they will definitely see the paid push and they will probably see the flashed hole card too. If they do, the dealer will likely be fired and possibly be arrested. The cursing guy may be considered part of the scam too, intended to distract the pit.

All it means is that you are a good person, that you don't like to see women being abused, you don't like racism and you want to help someone who has helped you. That makes you a first-class guy in my opinion, however, casinos do not operate on the same moral system as we do; they do not give a rat's ass about anything but their own greed. If everyone at that table was verbally abusing the dealer they wouldn't care, as long as the players were losing money.

Never tip a dealer who makes mistakes in your favor. It is indistinguishable from a quid pro quo, which is illegal and puts you and the dealer at risk. If you go back there and she is still employed, you may be receiving scrutiny. I certainly wouldn't play at her table again.

 

[ihate17]

The dealer is

Of course proof that she was not sloppy and had not miscounted but paid you on a push on purpose is hard, but firing her from her job is easy.

I have a problem with this casino. The casino business is not a moral business and many times I have witnessed customers verbally abusing employees and supervisors making sure that they are pre occupied with something else, in other words, ignoring the abuse. This is especially true if the customer is a big loser at that place, as rules of conduct are very flexible according to ones pocket book. So, to a point, I have a problem with all casinos on this subject. I also have seen customers tossed or warned for verbal abuse, but more often than not, nothing happens.
Now, we might not love casino employees as a whole and my situation is different than most here because I have family members in the business, but the truth of the matter is that all most dealers really do is just take the next card out of the shoe! Their mannerisms on a bad beat may set someone off, their lack of thanks for a toke might piss me off (I will not show it, just never toke that dealer again) but all they did was pull a card out of the shoe.

Casinos should, or must protect their employees. If they really cared about them, they would.

ihate17

 

[ChefJJ]

PS - fake lesbians are definitely hotter than real ones, as I learned on my trip to Vegas when the lesbian convention was going on.

As my boy has put it: "Showtime quality, not Lifetime quality."

 

[RJT]

You have not participated in a crime. You were just minding your own business playing your own game, and took advantage of a dealer error just like any other AP would, and it has been firmly established by the courts that AP tactics are legal.

However you made one really serious mistake. You tipped her. A $200 tip? You realize there is no way that is going to escape scrutiny, especially if this is a place where dealers keep their own tips. And they are going to roll back the tape, they will definitely see the paid push and they will probably see the flashed hole card too. If they do, the dealer will likely be fired and possibly be arrested. The cursing guy may be considered part of the scam too, intended to distract the pit.

All it means is that you are a good person, that you don't like to see women being abused, you don't like racism and you want to help someone who has helped you. That makes you a first-class guy in my opinion, however, casinos do not operate on the same moral system as we do; they do not give a rat's ass about anything but their own greed. If everyone at that table was verbally abusing the dealer they wouldn't care, as long as the players were losing money.

Never tip a dealer who makes mistakes in your favor. It is indistinguishable from a quid pro quo, which is illegal and puts you and the dealer at risk. If you go back there and she is still employed, you may be receiving scrutiny. I certainly wouldn't play at her table again.

I agree with you that AB is a straight up guy on this one AM, but i'm afraid that if this behaviour was to continue and be discovered it certainly would be considered illegal. It is a legal advantage play technique if you take advantage of a sloppy dealer. It is not legal to cooporate with the dealer to see flashed cards, which is what was happening here. This is a well known cheating strategy and one that will get you charged if you are caught. Unfortunately, on camera there is little difference between a dealer who is helping a player who showed some consideration for their feelings and a dealer who is a pre-arranged part of a cheating scam to ensure a 'partner' walks out with a lot of the casinos cash.
I do agree that AB has done nothing wrong, but in future if you see a dealer is deliberately trying to help you, thank them kindly and walk away as soon as you've realised what's going on. The pay off might seem nice at the time but we play our game based on proportional risk, and the risk here is too high.
The tip could certainly set alarm bells ringing, so i wouldn't go back there for a while if i was you.

RJT.

 

[adventureboy]

You guys have given some very thoughtful input, certainly several angles that I have not considered. The guy who was kicked out as way over the top. He called the girl several racial slurs specific of Asian people, and dropped the "F" bomb at least 5 times in a 30 second span. I was appalled that the pit persons did not act on their own to do something, but I guess the almighty dollar is King, and the guy was playing CRAZY---just giving his money away!!

In my defense, I was not sure that she was helping me until she paid the push. I am not good enough at card mechanics to know if she had dealt me seconds. I certainly was not looking for it. I made $2,800 on 6 hands, and I called it off after she flashed her hole card. I suppose, looking back, it was pretty dumb to tip her $200...it all happened so fast that I did not know what to do!! I will play again at this casino (it is a short drive from home) but I will avoid playing at her table for a few months!!

The more I think about it, the less guilty I feel about it. I certainly did not solicite any help from her. If the pit crew had treated their dealers like human beings, this would have never happened. Also, I don't think that $2,800 is going to put a crimp in the casino's style!

In the end, I may feel a little bad about it, but not so bad that I am giving the money back!!!!!

 

[Kasi]

You guys have given some very thoughtful input, certainly several angles that I have not considered. The guy who was kicked out as way over the top. He called the girl several racial slurs specific of Asian people, and dropped the "F" bomb at least 5 times in a 30 second span. I was appalled that the pit persons did not act on their own to do something, but I guess the almighty dollar is King, and the guy was playing CRAZY---just giving his money away!!

In my defense, I was not sure that she was helping me until she paid the push. I am not good enough at card mechanics to know if she had dealt me seconds. I certainly was not looking for it. I made $2,800 on 6 hands, and I called it off after she flashed her hole card. I suppose, looking back, it was pretty dumb to tip her $200...it all happened so fast that I did not know what to do!! I will play again at this casino (it is a short drive from home) but I will avoid playing at her table for a few months!!

The more I think about it, the less guilty I feel about it. I certainly did not solicite any help from her. If the pit crew had treated their dealers like human beings, this would have never happened. Also, I don't think that $2,800 is going to put a crimp in the casino's style!

In the end, I may feel a little bad about it, but not so bad that I am giving the money back!!!!!

I do think it's quite possible in those hand held games to get screwed - the dealer knows what the second card is and saves it for when she needs it - or wants to give it away. I don't think u could spot a second-deal if u tried. These guys are good.

As far as the tip, that's almost evidence you were not colluding. If u were, u'd split the profits at her place later on! Especially when tips are shared which I think is the norm. I'm sure u can find that out.

No way they can prove collusion on a 1-time thing. I had a dealer once ask me three times "Are you sure" - finally I figured it out and changed my mind. And won. Sometimes they know but I don't know how.

 

[EasyRhino]

Honestly, I think you only made two mistakes:

1) Listening to her advice to bet it up big in a negative count before you knew she was working for you.

2) Tipping grande.

You were right to bail on the table, unfortunately. Maybe you should have just gone out and bought her some flowers or something.

 

[Kasi]

Honestly, I think you only made two mistakes:

1) Listening to her advice to bet it up big in a negative count before you knew she was working for you.

2) Tipping grande.

You were right to bail on the table, unfortunately. Maybe you should have just gone out and bought her some flowers or something.

Well #1 depends on whether you think she was cheating or not.

I mean either she was trolling for a tip like they do - you know the next card will be an 8 and when it is they look like a genius - or she was cheating with knowledge of the outcome of the hand, or likely outcome of the hand, because she controlled that outcome.

So either she usually cheats on behalf of the casino and chose this time not to. Or she does on behalf of herself which I find a little unlikely.

 

[RikaKazak]

You have not participated in a crime. You were just minding your own business playing your own game, and took advantage of a dealer error just like any other AP would, and it has been firmly established by the courts that AP tactics are legal.

However you made one really serious mistake. You tipped her. A $200 tip? You realize there is no way that is going to escape scrutiny, especially if this is a place where dealers keep their own tips. And they are going to roll back the tape, they will definitely see the paid push and they will probably see the flashed hole card too. If they do, the dealer will likely be fired and possibly be arrested. The cursing guy may be considered part of the scam too, intended to distract the pit.

All it means is that you are a good person, that you don't like to see women being abused, you don't like racism and you want to help someone who has helped you. That makes you a first-class guy in my opinion, however, casinos do not operate on the same moral system as we do; they do not give a rat's ass about anything but their own greed. If everyone at that table was verbally abusing the dealer they wouldn't care, as long as the players were losing money.

Never tip a dealer who makes mistakes in your favor. It is indistinguishable from a quid pro quo, which is illegal and puts you and the dealer at risk. If you go back there and she is still employed, you may be receiving scrutiny. I certainly wouldn't play at her table again.

my thoughts exactly