Bankroll Building

[EasyRhino]

I'm going to warn against travel.

With a small (say, $2k) bankroll, if you are betting conservatively, your EV is under $10 per hour, I don't care what kind of game you're playing.

Therefore, as soon as you start to incur any kind of travel expense, a gambling trip becomes a money-losing proposition.

Driving to Foxwoods and backcounting, while monotonous, offers at least the chance of turning a profit.

Now, I'm not knocking the idea of going to Vegas or Reno or Biloxi or AC or Aruba... but if you do with a small bankroll, you should consider it a vacation that you pay for, not an investment.

 

[shadroch]

Foxwoods or some of the smaller places?

There are two casinos in Conneticut and they rank as the two largest casinos in the world.

Please advise me where a low roller can find a better $5 game than the DD at the El Cortez,or The Plaza? Great games combined with cheap rooms and food.
If a person thinks they have the discipline needed to be a card counter,whatever distractions there might be downtown shouldn't effect him.
I didn't tell him to go to the strip,I said go downtown.The trip isn't to make money,its to see if he has what it takes.

 

[Mimosine]

Foxwoods or some of the smaller places?

There are two casinos in Conneticut and they rank as the two largest casinos in the world.

Please advise me where a low roller can find a better $5 game than the DD at the El Cortez,or The Plaza? Great games combined with cheap rooms and food.
If a person thinks they have the discipline needed to be a card counter,whatever distractions there might be downtown shouldn't effect him.
I didn't tell him to go to the strip,I said go downtown.The trip isn't to make money,its to see if he has what it takes.

add slots a fun and the western for variety. oh and longhorn and navada palace for super low roller $2 and $1 games, both with good rules and bad pen!

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Foxwoods or some of the smaller places?

There are two casinos in Conneticut and they rank as the two largest casinos in the world.

True. But they have reasonably good rules, allow mid-shoe entry and also comp table game players well. Trust me on this, I've been pounding on them for years.

Please advise me where a low roller can find a better $5 game than the DD at the El Cortez,or The Plaza? Great games combined with cheap rooms and food.

Reno/Sparks/Carson City, Wendover/Jackpot, Tucson, Olympia, Sault Ste. Marie, Morton, Thief River Falls, Danbury, Turtle Lake, Baton Rouge.

If a person thinks they have the discipline needed to be a card counter,whatever distractions there might be downtown shouldn't effect him.
I didn't tell him to go to the strip,I said go downtown.The trip isn't to make money,its to see if he has what it takes.

You can test yourself at the table anywhere. Damn sight better you make some money doing it.

And you can get douched out of the El Cortez in 15 minutes, and the only thing really good about the Plaza is the food. Then what? It's not like it was even 3 years ago when you had the Gold Spike, Western, Golden Nugget, LVC, etc., all with decent games available.

I mean, Las Vegas is an experience unto itself and if you want to go there and have some fun, go for it. But it's just no place for a novice counter with a limited bankroll to learn the ropes.

 

[biggamejames]

True. But they have reasonably good rules, allow mid-shoe entry and also comp table game players well. Trust me on this, I've been pounding on them for years.




Reno/Sparks/Carson City, Wendover/Jackpot, Tucson, Olympia, Sault Ste. Marie, Morton, Thief River Falls, Danbury, Turtle Lake, Baton Rouge.



You can test yourself at the table anywhere. Damn sight better you make some money doing it.

And you can get douched out of the El Cortez in 15 minutes, and the only thing really good about the Plaza is the food. Then what? It's not like it was even 3 years ago when you had the Gold Spike, Western, Golden Nugget, LVC, etc., all with decent games available.

I mean, Las Vegas is an experience unto itself and if you want to go there and have some fun, go for it. But it's just no place for a novice counter with a limited bankroll to learn the ropes.

Thanks a bunch for educating the folks. The way some these people harp on discipline, its as though they wrote the book on it. I am betting half of us here cant even maintain discipline on a long term basis at the black jack table let alone the gobs of money burning fun in sin city.


With this guy just starting out, he will need all the help he can get. People should not fill his head with ideas like avoiding temptation in vegas is as easy as staying of internet porn for a day..:laugh: (that whole city was built on teamster money and the dreams of 22 year olds much like this guy). It was built specifically to suck you in and make you burn money. Everything down to the decor in most casinos is designed to psychologically make you spend spend spend.

And if you are broke and dont have the money to spend, then there is nothing worse than las vegas. Its kind of like being at a 10 girl orgy with a limp dick and they wont even let you do a fluff job on any of the girls....


stay away :whip: stay away:whip: stay away!!!:whip:


Ps...When i said Foxwood and other smaller venues, i mean they are located in smaller gambling locales compared to Las vegas with far less attractions and crowds. It would be much easier for one to hit those two in the same night and find several good games than it would be at most casinos in las vegas.

 

[halcyon1234]

First and foremost: Finish school. If you ever want a replenishable, good sized bankroll, go through school, get a good job that you enjoy, be happy.

Next: Stay away from Vegas. Everyone's pointed out why: too expensive, too money burning, etc, etc.

Ask yourself this: You save $3000. You look at your bankstatement with pride. Alright, three grand! An achievement. That's two months' salary saved up. You go to bed, and the next day, open your bank statement. Your balance is 0. The money is gone without any hope of getting it back.

How do you feel?

Let that be your guide to Vegas.

Finally: Play some online blackjack. Look at this thread:

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=5379

In it, there's a discussion about how to online hustle starting with a $5 bonus. I had to withdraw my own online bankroll for expenses (I'm a student too). I Left just over $5 to play with. It's now $300, and that's only a few casinos. (Time's been precious lately).

So give it a try. If you can build $3000 off your $5, then not only have you got $3K, but you've also played somewhere in the order of 100,000 hands of blackjack. If you don't have BS down pat by then, you never will. =) Plus after that much blackjack, you might decide to just take the 3K and stop. Or you'll truly love it and want to play more.

 

[shadroch]

True. But they have reasonably good rules, allow mid-shoe entry and also comp table game players well. Trust me on this, I've been pounding on them for years.




Reno/Sparks/Carson City, Wendover/Jackpot, Tucson, Olympia, Sault Ste. Marie, Morton, Thief River Falls, Danbury, Turtle Lake, Baton Rouge.



You can test yourself at the table anywhere. Damn sight better you make some money doing it.

And you can get douched out of the El Cortez in 15 minutes, and the only thing really good about the Plaza is the food. Then what? It's not like it was even 3 years ago when you had the Gold Spike, Western, Golden Nugget, LVC, etc., all with decent games available.

I mean, Las Vegas is an experience unto itself and if you want to go there and have some fun, go for it. But it's just no place for a novice counter with a limited bankroll to learn the ropes.

You named a bunch of cities and towns. Now name some casinos in them that have better games. Northern Nevada mostly has no DAS,or DD on 9/10/11 only. None of them have 75-85% penetration,that I've seen.None of them offer cheap flights,cheap rooms or cheap meals,that I've seen.
playing lowball,you are not going to get any heat from El Cortez,ask any of the many posters on this board who have actually played there lately.
Jet Blue from either Boston or JFK to Vegas,$300 tops,$20 for a shuttle to downtown,Two nights at El Cortez $30,two nights at Binions $30,one American Casino Guide$9.95.,$100 for food for four days.Fours days of gambling,rooms and food for under $500.Spread 1-5 on the $1,000 BR and you have 40 maximum bets. Add the $500 to your $1,000 BR,go to Foxwoods and do your same spread 1-5.Suddenly you have only twenty max bets,and you still need to eat and sleep for the next 96 hours..
Stack that up against Reno,Sparks,Wenover or anyplace else you want,and tell me which is a better way to go.Transportation to Reno from the North East is over $500 just for airfare.

 

[Jumpfreak888]

I have a small problem, or perhaps a puzzle, that I would like to present to you all. I am a 22 year old college student who has had a longstanding interest in advantage gambling, specifically blackjack. In fact, I have posted on these forums before - my last visit was June 5, 2006 according to the website!

Pelerus,

I am in a VERY similar situation to your own. I am 21 years old, a college student, severly underfunded, and highly interested in advantage play. I've studied and practiced my ass off, and consider myself to be a very 'capable' advantage player.

My solution to you - for now, just wong whenever possible if you must play. Fluctuation is such a bitch...I've learned that the hard way...
We'd be much better off setting ourselves up financially before tackling the tables hard.

Also, look into BJ tournaments. I say this for a few reasons...

1. Oftentimes you'll find that the return is potentially HUGE in relation to the buy in.
2. There are many casino's where I live that offer great promotions just for entering tournaments (match plays, money drawings, free dinner, etc)
3. There will often be time to kill between rounds, which is a perfect time to wong. (I've paid for my entry fee several times by doing this between rounds :grin: )
4. BJ tourneys are popping up everywhere, which makes them very available. (Especially in WA - where I live)
5. Many BJ tourney players are unskilled, which increased *our* odds of winning.
6. They are just plain fun.

Be warned though, counting isn't nearly as important in tourney play (never hurts, though) Money management is much more important. If I've interested you at all, BE SURE TO DO YOUR HOMEWORK. 'Casino Tournament Strategy' by Standford Wong is a must read.

Hope this helps!

--Dan

 

[shadroch]

Just a note for those of you harping on the distractions of Las Vegas,I don't get it.
The guy is from the NorthEast,do you think there is anything in Vegas that NYC or Boston doesn't offer?
There are those who go to Vegas to party,and those who go to gamble. Some go for both.But if you go to Downtown Vegas to play BJ,its not like you are going to get pulled into Studio 54 or Ghost Bar.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

You named a bunch of cities and towns. Now name some casinos in them that have better games. Northern Nevada mostly has no DAS,or DD on 9/10/11 only. None of them have 75-85% penetration,that I've seen.None of them offer cheap flights,cheap rooms or cheap meals,that I've seen.
playing lowball,you are not going to get any heat from El Cortez,ask any of the many posters on this board who have actually played there lately.
Jet Blue from either Boston or JFK to Vegas,$300 tops,$20 for a shuttle to downtown,Two nights at El Cortez $30,two nights at Binions $30,one American Casino Guide$9.95.,$100 for food for four days.Fours days of gambling,rooms and food for under $500.Spread 1-5 on the $1,000 BR and you have 40 maximum bets. Add the $500 to your $1,000 BR,go to Foxwoods and do your same spread 1-5.Suddenly you have only twenty max bets,and you still need to eat and sleep for the next 96 hours..
Stack that up against Reno,Sparks,Wenover or anyplace else you want,and tell me which is a better way to go.Transportation to Reno from the North East is over $500 just for airfare.

Reno is all SD, and a bad SD game is better than a good DD game. Nothing compares to SD. All of the other places have at least one casino with excellent rules and/or pen. Not wise to identify them here.

Motel and food prices in Reno, same as Downtown. You'll want to rent a car so you can visit the very good games on the highway, plus Sparks, Lake Tahoe, and Carson City. There are 8 stores in Reno and Sparks that deal 0.18% SD, plus 2 more in Carson City. There are 14 more that deal 0.44% SD, still better than DD. Southwest serves Reno and you can get round trip transportation for $200 plus tax if you plan ahead and take advantage of specials. (Ding!)

And Downtown has the El Cortez. You might get to play for a couple of days, or you might get your ticket punched in a few minutes, like I have, several times. Then there is little but weak games that are no better than those found in a local Indian casino and you will wish you were home.

I wouldn't recommend a long trip to Foxwoods with a small bankroll, but the original poster apparently lives within driving distance so it's not a bad place to go to and backcount for a few hours a week.

 

[EasyRhino]

While I spent the last post harping against travel, I'd now like to stick up for Reno. It's cheap as hell, and there's single deck games everywhere (except Harrah's... assholes). Out here in westcoastland, flights aren't very different in price.

And the games are basically $5 everywhere, which is pretty sweet. My weekend I spent there (while doubtful if it was even +EV) was very well suited to my bankroll at the time, and a whole lot of fun. Kind of a card counting boot camp.

 

[shadroch]

The key thing is that while Reno may be cheap to get to from the WC,its not fom the EC.Believe me,I've looked into going.I've yet to find rooms for $15 a night,and isn't double on 9-11 only pretty standard?
There is no reason to defend Reno. It looks like a very nice place. Its just that for whatever reason,its not that easy or cheap for North Easterners to get to.
Can you easily get around from airport to hotel to casinos without a car in Reno?

 

[Automatic Monkey]

The key thing is that while Reno may be cheap to get to from the WC,its not fom the EC.Believe me,I've looked into going.I've yet to find rooms for $15 a night,and isn't double on 9-11 only pretty standard?
There is no reason to defend Reno. It looks like a very nice place. Its just that for whatever reason,its not that easy or cheap for North Easterners to get to.
Can you easily get around from airport to hotel to casinos without a car in Reno?

No, you will want a car. That's $30 per day. But you are playing SD. So even with D10, you are looking at 20-80% more win rate than a typical DD game. There's no S17 or DAS on SD because that would take away all of the house edge. Southwest flies to Reno, same price as Jetblue to Vegas.

On the other hand, playing SD requires a lot of finesse, with cover, camouflage and tweaking of the game to get the best pen. My betting level weighs heavily on most of those stores. However a red chipper can fly under the radar in a lot of places and it's a good way for him to expand bankroll.

 

[shadroch]

SW flies to Reno from where?Did they just start?Is it direct?When I was looking last August,I was getting crazy prices,almost all involving multiple stops/switchs.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

SW flies to Reno from where?Did they just start?Is it direct?When I was looking last August,I was getting crazy prices,almost all involving multiple stops/switchs.

From Islip, LGA, and Hartford. There is almost always going to be a stop on Southwest, but if you book a couple of months ahead it's generally $250 plus taxes.

 

[shadroch]

SW does not fly out of LGA. Never has,never will.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

SW does not fly out of LGA. Never has,never will.

They codeshare with ATA. One stop in Chicago, $278 RT.

 

[shadroch]

Okay,thanks. I see they co-share with ATA. I plugged in some random dates in August and got prices around $200 each way.I see that Spirit is advertising $48 Roundtrip fares from AC,but whatever dates I plug in come back in the $300plus range.

 

[sagefr0g]

I have a small problem, or perhaps a puzzle, that I would like to present to you all. I am a 22 year old college student who has had a longstanding interest in advantage gambling, specifically blackjack. In fact, I have posted on these forums before - my last visit was June 5, 2006 according to the website!

Last summer was the pinnacle of my blackjack experience thus far, as I traveled to Foxwoods several times for blackjack trips, and made a marginal profit overall. Of course, before those trips I read several books on blackjack (I have a nice little library now) and practiced counting for long hours by myself. Since then, however, school and personal matters have drawn me away from the casino.

Now I feel ready to return - and therein lies the problem. I have virtually no money saved, as it has gone into other outlets when I stopped being concerned with "saving money for blackjack." I do have a job as a cashier with a VERY marginal income, and I do some yard work part time. My question and problem is this:

What is the best way to go about making money at blackjack given my situation? Simple question perhaps, but quite complex, as I have discovered. Thus far, I have found 2 main possibilities:

1) traditional - work my dead-end, minimum wage jobs until I have around 10k saved , which is the bare minimum necessary for playing with an acceptable Risk of Ruin at Foxwoods Casino, which offers mainly $15-$25 minimum tables
2) "hail mary" - accept a much higher RoR on individual trips, with the knowledge that I can replenish the Hail Mary bankroll in between trips and with the hope that on one of the trips, I will boost up

The second option seemed like the better of the two to me, since I dread the prospect of saving a full starting bankroll at $7.5 per hour - I think anyone would! :laugh: However, upon closer inspection, Hail Mary has its own share of problems for me, namely that I cannot easily regenerate the amount I would need even for such a bankroll. Secondly, even if I do "boost up" with such a bankroll, where am I left? Still without a full bankroll.

In any case, I throw my conundrum upon the collective mastery of the forum membership! Thanks for any input.

sounds like you know how to play advantage blackjack. i think the answer to your conundrum is hidden in this song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YantqACer4

 

[bj bob]

Reno or bust?

The key thing is that while Reno may be cheap to get to from the WC,its not fom the EC.Believe me,I've looked into going.I've yet to find rooms for $15 a night,and isn't double on 9-11 only pretty standard?
There is no reason to defend Reno. It looks like a very nice place. Its just that for whatever reason,its not that easy or cheap for North Easterners to get to.
Can you easily get around from airport to hotel to casinos without a car in Reno?

Shad, I'm going there in a few days and have been looking at the various possibilites from the EC. From Balt. to Reno is $99 one way on SWA. Actually, flying into Sac. is probably better for East Coasters since there are more schedule availabilities and rental car/wk.(compact) runs $100-125. These fares also apply from PHL if you can get down there cheap. The drive from Sac. to Reno is only 2 hrs. and provides gorgeous scenery along the way. The time frame I looked up was from Aug.15-22. Hope this helps.
As the Monk was saying, you will need a car up there anyway if you want to venture out away from the "center of activity" which is the big 3..El Dorado, Circus and Silver Legacy (all are inter-connected). You can walk to Fitzgerald's, Harrah's and Cal-Neva, but if you are looking to exploit the real good SD games, you'll need to drive about 3 mi. to Sparks and 8 mi. to Boomtown. Bottom line-car=+EV.