banned, barred or you can't play bj

[sagefr0g]

first off lemme state that i believe there have been, are now and can be corrupt laws.
actually i have no interest in over throwing this law, but i find it corrupt.
that law being where a business establishment open to the public (age prohibitions not withstanding) can trespass a person from it's property for whatever reason the proprietors of the business deem fit.
this law seems to make it possible to override anti-discrimination laws by allowing a shroud of sorts with respect to the reason for trespass.
further, in the case of casinos the trespass law (at the heart or spirit of the law) allows the casino to restrict any person's right to exercise commerce with legal tender. just me maybe but that scenario to me just screams of corruption.
am i missing something here?

 

[Mr. T]

first off lemme state that i believe there have been, are now and can be corrupt laws.
actually i have no interest in over throwing this law, but i find it corrupt.
that law being where a business establishment open to the public (age prohibitions not withstanding) can trespass a person from it's property for whatever reason the proprietors of the business deem fit.
this law seems to make it possible to override anti-discrimination laws by allowing a shroud of sorts with respect to the reason for trespass.
further, in the case of casinos the trespass law (at the heart or spirit of the law) allows the casino to restrict any person's right to exercise commerce with legal tender. just me maybe but that scenario to me just screams of corruption.
am i missing something here?

Man, you must have strong feeling about this after the thread which contain this posting was locked by Ken.
I don't know what "corrupt laws" is. Whatever law it is, right / wrong or good / bad we all live under the law and not abiding by it could have detrimental consequences to you.
The trespass law is universal. I presume you are saying this law have been misused by the casino.
If anybody have a private property and they do not want a particular person access to it is it not their basic right to do so if the property owner is not violating other existing law.
Such as in the case in AC against CC.

 

[creeping panther]

T

Man, you must have strong feeling about this after the thread which contain this posting was locked by Ken.
I don't know what "corrupt laws" is. Whatever law it is, right / wrong or good / bad we all live under the law and not abiding by it could have detrimental consequences to you.
The trespass law is universal. I presume you are saying this law have been misused by the casino.
If anybody have a private property and they do not want a particular person access to it is it not their basic right to do so if the property owner is not violating other existing law.
Such as in the case in AC against CC.

In America to tresspass is unAmerican as it denies basic human rights dear to all freedom loving Americans and is an affront to all American heroes that died for our freedoms.

To tresspass is cowardly and shows you have no Cahones'.

CP

 

[Mr. T]

In America to tresspass is unAmerican as it denies basic human rights dear to all freedom loving Americans and is an affront to all American heroes that died for our freedoms.

To tresspass is cowardly and shows you have no Cahones'.

CP

UnAmerican, Basic Human Rights, Freedom loving American. These are strong words.
If I go into your house uninvited, wouldn't you say you have the right to eject me.

 

[creeping panther]

Mr.T

UnAmerican, Basic Human Rights, Freedom loving American. These are strong words.
If I go into your house uninvited, wouldn't you say you have the right to eject me.

In America your Home Is Your Castle,,,an intruder is usually killed and tossed out the front door as a piece of trash.

CP

 

[sagefr0g]

Man, you must have strong feeling about this after the thread which contain this posting was locked by Ken.

well i was hoping the thread was appropriate for this section of the forum.

I don't know what "corrupt laws" is. Whatever law it is, right / wrong or good / bad we all live under the law and not abiding by it could have detrimental consequences to you.
The trespass law is universal. I presume you are saying this law have been misused by the casino.
If anybody have a private property and they do not want a particular person access to it is it not their basic right to do so if the property owner is not violating other existing law.
Such as in the case in AC against CC.

well, for example, say we went to McDonald's, wanted to buy a hamburger, but the manager told us our money wasn't good there. we ask why, and are told, "for what ever reason i want". errhh maybe i'm wrong but i don't believe a business open to the public is allowed by law to do that, long as you have shoes and a shirt on, lol.
for some reason, apparently it's ok for a casino to treat you in such a manner.
perhaps i don't fully understand, but this is how i perceive the spirit of the trespass law when it comes to casinos.
if it's really that simple, well it just doesn't seem like a just and fair law.

 

[Mr. T]

In America your Home Is Your Castle,,,an intruder is usually killed and tossed out the front door as a piece of trash.

CP

Unfortunately in the eyes of the law your house and the casino both as private properties and are treated the same under the law.
Your home is your castle. So is it everywhere else in the world.

 

[creeping panther]

T

Unfortunately in the eyes of the law your house and the casino both as private properties and are treated the same under the law.
Your home is your castle. So is it everywhere else in the world.

Not true, the casino is public and not private. It is taxed as a public business entity and thus cannot rightfully tresspass except in the case of a criminal act.

In America we place high value on freedoom and fair play and human rights,,,much more so than any other lands. We have what is called equal protection and equal access to public facilities.

CP

 

[Mr. T]

Not true, the casino is public and not private. It is taxed as a public business entity and thus cannot rightfully tresspass except in the case of a criminal act.

In America we place high value on freedoom and fair play and human rights,,,much more so than any other lands. We have what is called equal protection and equal access to public facilities.

CP

Let me take this easy one first.

casino is public. I am sure there are other posters here that can help me clear up on this issue.

 

[Mr. T]

well i was hoping the thread was appropriate for this section of the forum.


well, for example, say we went to McDonald's, wanted to buy a hamburger, but the manager told us our money wasn't good there. we ask why, and are told, "for what ever reason i want". errhh maybe i'm wrong but i don't believe a business open to the public is allowed by law to do that, long as you have shoes and a shirt on, lol.
for some reason, apparently it's ok for a casino to treat you in such a manner.
perhaps i don't fully understand, but this is how i perceive the spirit of the trespass law when it comes to casinos.
if it's really that simple, well it just doesn't seem like a just and fair law

Yes it is that simple. "if it' really that simple, well it just doesn't seem like a just and fair law."

Yes McDonald can refuse to sell to you for whatever reason. The onus is on you to prove that McDonald has broken some existing laws.

 

[aslan]

first off lemme state that i believe there have been, are now and can be corrupt laws.
actually i have no interest in over throwing this law, but i find it corrupt.
that law being where a business establishment open to the public (age prohibitions not withstanding) can trespass a person from it's property for whatever reason the proprietors of the business deem fit.
this law seems to make it possible to override anti-discrimination laws by allowing a shroud of sorts with respect to the reason for trespass.
further, in the case of casinos the trespass law (at the heart or spirit of the law) allows the casino to restrict any person's right to exercise commerce with legal tender. just me maybe but that scenario to me just screams of corruption.
am i missing something here?

Sage,

I had occasion to do a lot of research on this last year. The truth is, a business can ask you to leave without a reason, and the police with back them up, BUT...the person trespassed can take his case before a judge who can decide whether or not the barring was arbitrary, and a good reason not being set forth by the business proprietor, the judge can order the business to allow you back in. So it is a bit confusing, since the business has the immediate upper-hand, but the customer does have recourse to the courts. Of course, no business can trespass you for anything already protected by law, for example, barring for religious, racial, gender reasons. But they also cannot be completely arbitrary or unreasonable and expect it to stand up in court, for example, they don't like how you part your hair, they don't like your personality, you drink sarsaparilla instead of whiskey, etc.

 

[Machinist]

Here'e the problem...........MONEY!!!!!.......in vegas how do you think they pay their bills........where does the money come from???? duh???
In the states......how much revenue do they get from "their" casinos........
It's a sucky deal and thats the way it is.........
Sir would you please cash out your machine and leave the casino???? Huh....who me?? UUUhhhh okay......
Thinking to my self.........(well hell this play lasted longer than i thought it would) :laugh:
A week later i'm back banging them again on another shift....or maybe hell the next shift.....
It's a game.......... PLAY IT!!!!!

Machinist

 

[Mr. T]

Sage,

I had occasion to do a lot of research on this last year. The truth is, a business can ask you to leave without a reason, and the police with back them up, BUT...the person trespassed can take his case before a judge who can decide whether or not the barring was arbitrary, and a good reason not being set forth by the business proprietor, the judge can order the business to allow you back in. So it is a bit confusing, since the business has the immediate upper-hand, but the customer does have recourse to the courts. Of course, no business can trespass you for anything already protected by law, for example, barring for religious, racial, gender reasons. But they also cannot be completely arbitrary or unreasonable and expect it to stand up in court, for example, they don't like how you part your hair, they don't like your personality, you drink sarsaparilla instead of whiskey, etc.

You explain it very well, my friend. Try and prove to the court that McDonald is " arbitary " in their decision, whatever that means.

Now it looks like you can help CP on the issue casino is public.

 

[sagefr0g]

Sage,

I had occasion to do a lot of research on this last year. The truth is, a business can ask you to leave without a reason, and the police with back them up, BUT...the person trespassed can take his case before a judge who can decide whether or not the barring was arbitrary, and a good reason not being set forth by the business proprietor, the judge can order the business to allow you back in. So it is a bit confusing, since the business has the immediate upper-hand, but the customer does have recourse to the courts. Of course, no business can trespass you for anything already protected by law, for example, barring for religious, racial, gender reasons. But they also cannot be completely arbitrary or unreasonable and expect it to stand up in court, for example, they don't like how you part your hair, they don't like your personality, you drink sarsaparilla instead of whiskey, etc.

i have to admit after doing a little research it appears that Mr. T is correct at least as far as what has gone on in the past and how it is currently with respect to the issue that i originally posted about.
i just hope that you are correct as well Aslan, when it comes to the question of completely arbitrary or unreasonable use of the trespass law.
i would hope that the following might one day hold some bearing with respect to such matters, especially with regard to business's doing commerce with the public.
Pursuant to the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution, no person may be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process of law.

& this:
We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

edit: but in truth, i personally don't want to see the laws changed in such a way that we'd end up having the same situation that Atlantic City casinos exhibit.

 

[Canceler]

casino is public. I am sure there are other posters here that can help me clear up on this issue.

I'll go along with you on this. Public property is usually held by some governmental agency; individuals or corporations own private property.

 

[aslan]

You explain it very well, my friend. Try and prove to the court that McDonald is " arbitary " in their decision, whatever that means.

Now it looks like you can help CP on the issue casino is public.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Try and prove to the court that McDonald is "arbitary [sic]." Such a case as you put forth earlier would have to be taken before a judge who would decide in his sole discretion. He may or may not find McDonald wrong. All one can do is present the facts; the judge is then free to decide.

A casino does do business with the public. If someone is trespassed without reason, they are still subject to a legal determination. In a jurisdiction like Vegas, good luck! The casinos seem to own the town. But one never knows; given the opportunity, I would take a bad trespass to court. Of course, casinos are very shrewd. They might contend a person was unruly, disturbing the peace, cheating, etc. and it's your word against theirs unless you have witnesses. Also, we all know that the courts have sided with their right to refuse to do business with card counters. If by chance a casino was honest and said they barred you because you were winning and for no other reason, I think you might have a good chance of convincing a judge that you were unfairly barred. In such a case, the casinos trespass action could be overturned.

 

[Mr. T]

I thought you CC have this pat down already. The casino would tell you "we don't like your style of play". What is arbitary about this?

So you hire a lawyer and what arguements do you want him to make .Meanwhile it would cost you plenty in legal and court cost. Evidence to be presented in court. No hearsay, sworn affidavits, witness, citing precedent cases, etc. Prove the casino is arbitary. Your hypothsis may work. Perhaps some rich guy with money to burn can try this If it can be done why hasn't it been done already.

 

[creeping panther]

T

I thought you CC have this pat down already. The casino would tell you "we don't like your style of play". What is arbitary about this?

So you hire a lawyer and what arguements do you want him to make .Meanwhile it would cost you plenty in legal and court cost. Evidence to be presented in court. No hearsay, sworn affidavits, witness, citing precedent cases, etc. Prove the casino is arbitary. Your hypothsis may work. Perhaps some rich guy with money to burn can try this If it can be done why hasn't it been done already.

In America tresspass at the casino will soon be overturned when done for a reason not associated with criminal activity,,it will very soon be replaced with flat betting a person,,,good-by to tresspass.

And for the record, casinos are very public places and must abide by the great Constitution of the U.S.A.

This is much like the TSA issue,,the more you accept the more they will take from you.

CP

 

[mathman]

What we need to do is get "intelligence level" added to the federal and states civil rights laws. That would make it illegal to ban players under the tavern right to refuse law based on their intelligence level. That could be snuck in based on the other way around, lower intelligence, but if worded correctly it could be used for higher intelligence also. It would take a court case or two but it could work....JtMM

 

[sagefr0g]

I thought you CC have this pat down already. The casino would tell you "we don't like your style of play". What is arbitary about this?

So you hire a lawyer and what arguements do you want him to make .Meanwhile it would cost you plenty in legal and court cost. Evidence to be presented in court. No hearsay, sworn affidavits, witness, citing precedent cases, etc. Prove the casino is arbitary. Your hypothsis may work. Perhaps some rich guy with money to burn can try this If it can be done why hasn't it been done already.

what's weird about that, is as i'm reading it a case just recently went before the Indiana supreme court. a case a card counter won in a lower court on the basis that he shouldn't be thrown out for using his brain, but the casino appealed it and then the casino won the case in the supreme court on the basis of any private property owner's right to invoke trespass for what ever reason. at least that's pretty much how i understood from my limited reading.
just me maybe, but if my understanding is anywhere close to correct then that was a ludicrous slaughter of justice.
it's understandable that private property owners should have the right to protect themselves, i have no problem with that. but let's have some justice and fairness with respect to their actions when they take some measure to protect themselves. private property owners conducting public business should not have the right to restrict their patron's right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness if such protection is arbitrary, unreasonable, paranoid and not justifiable.
edit: all that said, i'd still hate to see the over turn of things as they are as it would likely mean we'd have AC conditions all across the land.