Blackjack Isn't Blackjack Anymore

[blackjackisgone]

So what is the point in mastering card counting?

Everytime I have lost money. Everytime. I repeat: Everytime I've followed basic strategy (regardless of how bad I wanted to hit or stand because the count was -15 or +15 or whatever - I did what I was told and lost.

None of the tables in Vegas, NONE of the tables in Vegas has one original Blackjack game that your grandfather enjoyed. Not one.

Even if they did, counting feels like I have to do 10 things at once.

1) Counting
2) Remember how many hands I won or lost (probability)
3) True count dividing
4) Kelly bet
5) PUT UP WITH OTHER PLAYERS TALKING TO ME
6) Put up with dealers speed (they refuse to slow down) just go go go go
7) Put up with the paraniod pit bosses breathing down my neck and watching me like a hawk if I dare raise my bet
8) Put on oscar worthy fake act to pretend I'm just a regular gambler

It's too much. I don't know how anyone does it.

I even went to this place called El Cortez. A few thousand in chips and 3 pit bosses are literally standing over my shoulder watching every play. Dealer change immiedately. Old dealer walks over to boss looking guy whispering and looking at me. New dealer sits down and immedaitely starts talking at me - and only me. As if to distract me from the game. It felt so uncomfortable I just got up and left.

This is just too much. I've already trained everything short of getting with a team and having those casino stimulations you saw on the movie "21".

Even when the count is high I've had dealers get blackjack after blackjack. There is just as much a chance of them getting 2 good cards as you. Honestly I have a very hard time believing anyone can actually do this and make money. Every time I see some course online the most obvious question: If this guy is a master counter why is he selling counting courses?

It just seems like BS. Honestly. Love the idea of it. But if it was true I would have at least made a return on ONE game at this point.

Instead I literally just sit down and lose money. Here is how it goes:

1) Sit down
2) Lose money



There are no ups and downs in the game. NONE. Cortez single deck was literally the only game where I went up and down. All the other Casinos, MGM, Luxor, Treasure Island, Orleans, Mandaly, Bellagio, Stratosphere, I just lost money. I got 1 game where I was up 2 units. Thats it.

I have a tendancy to quit when I go below a pre-set level (10 units). So I always have to quit.

If there was a light at the end of this tunnel I would stick with it. But I don't see any light here. It seems Casinos have gotten to the point where they just err on the side of caution if they see ANY bet varations.

How many legit full time card counters are there in 2017? 4 or 5? You're talking about scraping out a 1% return per hand, plus all the other business expenses, traveling to casinos, hotels, and paying all your bills - all from that 1% return. Hogwash. I don't buy it for a second. If the casinos had original blackjack, the kind your grandfather played, and you had a MIT team - MAYBE.

But with these new rules you cannot make any money. I invested all this time and study and moved to Vegas - FOR NOTHING.

That's all I have to say. End of rant.

 

[stopgambling]

Point 2 is unnecessary and it 's wrong thinking .

 

[stopgambling]

I have a tendancy to quit when I go below a pre-set level (10 units). So I always have to quit.

That is probably another reason that contribute to not having success.

 

[DSchles]

Since you obviously must have taken a long time to write this, and you're clearly very frustrated and disappointed, I thought I might take some time to try to help you. As you're new to the game, I don't imagine you know who I am, but some people think I know a little bit about blackjack. In any event, maybe you will find some of the below helpful. I hope so.

"So what is the point in mastering card counting?"

To win money in the long run.

"Every time I have lost money. Every time. I repeat: Every time."

If that's literally true, then, clearly, you've had a rough beginning. If it just seems like every time, well, it's human nature to remember the losses more than the wins.

"I've followed basic strategy (regardless of how bad I wanted to hit or stand because the count was -15 or +15 or whatever - I did what I was told and lost."

I assume from the above that you aren't aware of playing variations and the use of index numbers to deviate from basic strategy. Is that correct? If so, you need to learn the most important ones. Google "Illustrious 18."

"None of the tables in Vegas, NONE of the tables in Vegas has one original Blackjack game that your grandfather enjoyed. Not one."

Well, that's not quite true, but the games with the best rules are probably for limits that you're not playing at this time. Of course, if you're talking about single-deck BJ, then it is very true.

"Even if they did, counting feels like I have to do 10 things at once."

Or eight!

"1) Counting"

Well, er, yeah.

"2) Remember how many hands I won or lost (probability)"

Certainly not. Who ever told you that? Who cares?

"3) True count dividing"

Yes, but if you find that hard, try K-O, which doesn't require true counting and is just as easy to master as Hi-Lo.

"4) Kelly bet"

Yes, but not a big deal. Five different sizes or so, parlaying up. Not brain surgery.

"5) PUT UP WITH OTHER PLAYERS TALKING TO ME"

If this is a big problem to you, then I would say you have a concentration problem. You aren't required to socialize with the other players. Tell them you don't feel well and would rather not talk to them. Or ignore them.

"6) Put up with dealers speed (they refuse to slow down) just go go go go."

Also not a problem. Dealers can't deal any faster than YOU permit them to. They can't play your hand for you, and they can't pass you by if you don't give a signal. So make them deal at a speed you're comfortable playing. Or find another dealer. Or, practice so that you're more comfortable with real-world speed.

"7) Put up with the paranoid pit bosses breathing down my neck and watching me like a hawk if I dare raise my bet."

Sorry. Comes with the territory. Casinos have this funny notion that you're not supposed to win their money, and some pit bosses have the even stranger notion that the money is theirs, and they have to protect it.

"8) Put on Oscar-worthy fake act to pretend I'm just a regular gambler."

Well, the alternative is to walk in with "I'm a card counter" written across your forehead, but that's frowned upon. You will have to accept the fact that if casinos determine you're counting, they won't let you play.

"It's too much. I don't know how anyone does it."

They practice a lot, so that just about everything you've written above doesn't bother them, and they make a personal decision that they're willing to make sacrifices to win money. But no one can tell you that that's what YOU should do. It's a personal decision.

"I even went to this place called El Cortez."

Well, clearly, that's the biggest mistake of your young career! Wondering who gave you that very poor idea. I've been playing for 42 years and have spent about 42 seconds in El Cortez. Just had to go in one day to verify that it is the biggest dump in the city -- and has the sweatiest personnel in the country. They will throw you out for varying from $5 to $10. So, now you know. And, if you ever set foot in the place again, then shame on you, and you deserve whatever happens to you. You've been warned.

"A few thousand in chips and 3 pit bosses are literally standing over my shoulder watching every play. Dealer change immediately. Old dealer walks over to boss looking guy whispering and looking at me. New dealer sits down and immediately starts talking at me - and only me. As if to distract me from the game. It felt so uncomfortable I just got up and left."

One of the better decisions of your young playing career! Now, STAY OUT!

"This is just too much. I've already trained everything short of getting with a team and having those casino simulations you saw in the movie '21.'"

No, I'm sorry; you're not as good as you can be. For one, you're much too emotional, and in addition, you may not be playing as well as you think you are. In any event, one thing is certainly true: Las Vegas is no longer a desirable location for playing blackjack. And you can' t imagine how sad it makes me to have to say that.

"Even when the count is high I've had dealers get blackjack after blackjack."

Like they're not entitled?

"There is just as much a chance of them getting 2 good cards as you."

So, then, why the surprise? But, have you figured out that taking turns getting blackjacks with the dealer every two hands would make you independently wealthy?

"Honestly I have a very hard time believing anyone can actually do this and make money."

Many people can do this and make money. Is it harder today than 20 years ago? Absolutely. So, you have a choice: invent a time machine, or accept the game as it is today, if you have the patience and the bankroll.

"Every time I see some course online the most obvious question: If this guy is a master counter why is he selling counting courses?"

Do you think it's possible to teach blackjack and play it at the same time? Or, are those two concepts mutually exclusive in your mind? Must you do either one or the other, but never both? I ran the New York franchise of the Jerry Patterson Blackjack Clinic for four years in the 1980s and taught hundreds of people to play the game, some of whom went on to win huge sums of money. And, as I recall, I also played the most frequently that I ever did, in those days.

"It just seems like BS. Honestly. Love the idea of it. But if it was true I would have at least made a return on ONE game at this point."

Would need details. What constitutes a "game"? Just how many sessions have you played? How many hours? One of my dearest friends began his BJ-playing career losing about 13 hourly sessions in a row. Couldn't win a dime. But he trusted the math, played for 30 years, and, well, let's just say he got his money back!

"Instead I literally just sit down and lose money. Here is how it goes:
1) Sit down
2) Lose money"

Been there, done that. But, just when you think the sun will never come out again, it does!

"There are no ups and downs in the game. NONE. Cortez single deck was literally the only game where I went up and down. All the other Casinos, MGM, Luxor, Treasure Island, Orleans, Mandalay, Bellagio, Stratosphere, I just lost money. I got 1 game where I was up 2 units. That's it.

Well, that's pretty shitty luck, but it can happen. It would help if you describe your bankroll, bet ramp, etc.

"I have a tendency to quit when I go below a pre-set level (10 units). So I always have to quit."

Oh my God, why in the world would you do that?? 10 units is NOTHING. People lose 10 units before their ass ever hits the chair! No wonder you lose so often! The minute you get behind, you run for the hills! Play an hour or less, no matter what the result is. Don't be a wimp. You're TRYING to lose!!

"If there was a light at the end of this tunnel I would stick with it."

You have your eyes closed, so you can't see the light. But, it's there.

"But I don't see any light here. It seems casinos have gotten to the point where they just err on the side of caution if they see ANY bet variations."

Sadly, that may be one of the more accurate statements you've made. So, you have to learn enough to throw them off the scent. Harder now than it used to be. But not impossible.

"How many legit full time card counters are there in 2017? 4 or 5?"

Naw. At least six or seven!

"You're talking about scraping out a 1% return per hand, plus all the other business expenses, traveling to casinos, hotels, and paying all your bills - all from that 1% return."

Don't knock 1%. It gets compounded like no other investment opportunity possibly can. Suppose you work your way up to black chips. And your average bet is, say, $200. You play five hours a day, 100 hands an hour, for ten days, and therefore lay across the table exactly ... wait for it! ... $1 million. Of which 1% equals $10,000. Do you understand how it CAN work ... eventually?

"Hogwash. I don't buy it for a second. If the casinos had original blackjack, the kind your grandfather played, and you had a MIT team - MAYBE"

It would be easier. Granted. But, there are a lot of people still making money with traditional card counting alone, although it is surely true that, these days, most APs prefer many alternatives.

"But with these new rules you cannot make any money."

Probably an exaggeration.

"I invested all this time and study and moved to Vegas - FOR NOTHING."

You probably shouldn't have moved until you had asked a great many questions as to what you would face once you got there. I think it's fair to say that you didn't do your homework in that respect.

"That's all I have to say. End of rant."

Hope I have been of some help. Don't go away. Tell us when you start winning. I'll still be here. I tend to look at the long run!

Better luck.

Don

 

[KewlJ]

First I can't help but wonder if "blackjackisgone" is a member from other sites that most of us know by another name. I say that because a former member of Norm's site, moved to Vegas I guess about 4 months ago, and has had kind of a rough start, going down as much as 12k and rebounding back up to even, and in recent days again falling into the red by 5 grand. This person has been sharing his experienced in a long running thread at Wizard's site, where he frequently vents about how the game can no longer be beaten and many of the same "vent's" made here.

Anyway, regardless whether this is the same person or not, some of your vents have to do with 'selective memory' as Don alluded to. Other's are just plain incorrect. I have to agree with almost everything in Don's fine post. What it boils down to is card counting is a grind. Your are grinding out a very small 1% (maybe less depending on factors) advantage over the very long run. However in the short run, anything.....and I mean anything can and will happen....including wild swings. THAT is the beast that is card counting in his day and age.

The one thing I don't agree with Don completely about is El Cortez. Here are two facts. 1.) El Cortez probably offers the best game in town. 2.) El Cortez is probably the sweatiest game in town (although a few others are vying for that title). It takes a really special mindset and an unique plan of attack to play El Cortez regularly and be welcome to play regularly. But if you can figure out exactly what they tolerate and play short sessions, it can be worthwhile.

Two things about EC. If you can figure out how to play there, you can play anywhere. And two, backoffs have no consequences at EC. They are not related to anyone, nor share info with any other casinos or databases. I have been backed off dozens of times. A lot of players just don't want to be bothered and just move long to another less sweaty (and less dumpier) opportunities. I really am not recommending EC, just saying, I have a different experience and view than Don.

 

[21forme]

OP, I can vouch for DSchles. He does know a thing or two (and up to three - that's BJA1, 2, and 3...) about Blackjack. Read everything he writes and read it again.

Don, about 10 years ago, I walked into EC to play a (beatable) BJ variant that existed in exactly one other casino in the country. I spread from 1x5 to 2x200 for a few hours, got tired, and probably had a headache from their yellow-tinted windows, too. I left on my own volition, with considerably more than I bought in for. So it is possible to win there. And I personally know someone who got tossed for raising his bet from $5 to $10

 

[xengrifter]

I don't agree with Don completely about is El Cortez. Here are two facts. 1.) El Cortez probably offers the best game in town. 2.) El Cortez is probably the sweatiest game in town (although a few others are vying for that title). It takes a really special mindset and an unique plan of attack to play El Cortez regularly and be welcome to play regularly.

Fully concur.
Don has had an attitude about EC for decades that doesn't rightly meter.

Two things about EC. If you can figure out how to play there, you can play anywhere. And two, backoffs have no consequences at EC. They are not related to anyone, nor share info with any other casinos or databases. I have been backed off dozens of times.

Again concur. Despite numerous backoffs over the years I play green there regularly, sometimes for hours.
I have also developed a fondness for the 1D RMatch, sometimes betting the full 100 max on RM while min 25 on main...
... I really fit in there! LOL.

Ps - The 2D game there is the more beatable table for straight short burst counting, but now I ONLY play the 1D+RM.

 

[xengrifter]

Don, about 10 years ago, I walked into EC to play a (beatable) BJ variant that existed in exactly one other casino in the country. I spread from 1x5 to 2x200 for a few hours, got tired, and probably had a headache from their yellow-tinted windows, too. I left on my own volition, with considerably more than I bought in for. So it is possible to win there. And I personally know someone who got tossed for raising his bet from $5 to $10

Ditto on both,

 

[LV Bear]

Fully concur.
Don has had an attitude about EC for decades that doesn't rightly meter.

Again concur. Despite numerous backoffs over the years I play green there regularly, sometimes for hours.
I have also developed a fondness for the 1D RMatch, sometimes betting the full 100 max on RM while min 25 on main...
... I really fit in there! LOL.

Ps - The 2D game there is the more beatable table for straight short burst counting, but now I ONLY play the 1D+RM.

LOL and ditto re RM, though I haven't been to the EC in a long time. RM is useful elsewhere when played properly.

 

[xengrifter]

LOL and ditto re RM

Here I thought I was singularly unique...
... next time DonS is in town one of us should take him there for some EC enlightenment!

 

[LV Bear]

No EC for me, thanks.

 

[ZeeBabar]

What is RM?

I stayed at EC (at their expense) and played with a players card there. The players card makes a difference. I had lost $1.1k at my first visit there which led to the comped rooms. I have slowly started winning some back. During my visit and staying there, I played short sessions on their 1 and 2 deck games and left with small wins. I suppose that initial loss did me some good because heat is palpably higher when playing unrated.

 

[LV Bear]

What is RM?

Royal Match.