Can you get a usable spread in Ontario?

[halcyon1234]

Hi, everyone. I've been reading the forum for a while as a lurker. It's been entertaining and informing-- so I thought I'd throw my hat into the ring as a poster.

I've only recently started to play blackjack. I first stepped foot inside a casino maybe six months ago, when my brother staked me in a Hold 'Em Sit-N-Go tourney. Since there was a good hour's wait, we played some $5 blackjack. It was with a CSM, and I was flat betting without knowing any basic strategy, so needless to say, the casino ended up on top by about $30.

Well, ever since then I've been determined to get my money back.

Since then, I've progressed leaps and bounds as a player. I quickly came to the conclusion that randomly flat betting against a CSM is the equivillent of not covering your PIN at the ATM. I've learned basic strategy. I've practiced for countless hours at home with the same rules as the casino (6 decks though it may be 8, double any, no resplit aces, split to four, no surrender, stand on soft 17, 3:2bj, insurance 2-1). I've learned to card count (basic high-low, no side count, count down a deck in 30 seconds). I've practiced cover and heat deflection.

But there's something that still concerns me. Bet spreading. The more I think about it, and the more I read about 1-10 spreads, the more I think playing in Ontario isn't going to work.

Here in Ontario, there is a province mandated $100 table max. (I've been told about the province mandate, but I know for sure about the $100 max at the casino I go to). At the casino I go to, a "charity" casino called the Great Blue Heron, they use CSM on all the $5 and $10 tables, and even on some of the $15(!!!). I've seen $15/$100 tables that are shoe-dealt (as above), with ~75% pen. That means that at minimum, I have a $15 unit. Realistically, I'd have to look at a $25 unit. That means I have at best a 1-6 spread, and at worst a 1-4 spread.

Given that spread, I have to wonder-- can I hope for anything beyond a break-even?

The only other thing I can think of is to pass off a bunch of my chips to my brother, and tell him to "piggyback" my bets when I tell him to. But, in my mind, nothing shouts "heat" more than physically giving chips to someone and saying "bet with me, this is going to be good".

Any thoughts?

 

[checkmaterob]

Hi, everyone. I've been reading the forum for a while as a lurker. It's been entertaining and informing-- so I thought I'd throw my hat into the ring as a poster.

I've only recently started to play blackjack. I first stepped foot inside a casino maybe six months ago, when my brother staked me in a Hold 'Em Sit-N-Go tourney. Since there was a good hour's wait, we played some $5 blackjack. It was with a CSM, and I was flat betting without knowing any basic strategy, so needless to say, the casino ended up on top by about $30.

Well, ever since then I've been determined to get my money back.

Since then, I've progressed leaps and bounds as a player. I quickly came to the conclusion that randomly flat betting against a CSM is the equivillent of not covering your PIN at the ATM. I've learned basic strategy. I've practiced for countless hours at home with the same rules as the casino (6 decks though it may be 8, double any, no resplit aces, split to four, no surrender, stand on soft 17, 3:2bj, insurance 2-1). I've learned to card count (basic high-low, no side count, count down a deck in 30 seconds). I've practiced cover and heat deflection.

But there's something that still concerns me. Bet spreading. The more I think about it, and the more I read about 1-10 spreads, the more I think playing in Ontario isn't going to work.

Here in Ontario, there is a province mandated $100 table max. (I've been told about the province mandate, but I know for sure about the $100 max at the casino I go to). At the casino I go to, a "charity" casino called the Great Blue Heron, they use CSM on all the $5 and $10 tables, and even on some of the $15(!!!). I've seen $15/$100 tables that are shoe-dealt (as above), with ~75% pen. That means that at minimum, I have a $15 unit. Realistically, I'd have to look at a $25 unit. That means I have at best a 1-6 spread, and at worst a 1-4 spread.

Given that spread, I have to wonder-- can I hope for anything beyond a break-even?

The only other thing I can think of is to pass off a bunch of my chips to my brother, and tell him to "piggyback" my bets when I tell him to. But, in my mind, nothing shouts "heat" more than physically giving chips to someone and saying "bet with me, this is going to be good".

Any thoughts?

I think your first problem is trying to hustle money from a charity casino lol jk jk. Well, I guess that is if you believe in karma. But seeing as how I do not, let's think rationally.

The rules you describe can be beaten. Aside from your bet spread, think about trying to play only in positive counts. That will surely increase your EV. You also have a good idea to play as a team with your brother. Just make sure you agree to share your winnings if he will be placing the big bets lol.

I'm not sure where you heard about this "$100 table max" in Ontario. This must just be at your local shop, because I have been to several casinos in Ontario (non-charity), and they all had max bets well beyond $100. In fact, the lowest table max I have seen in Ontario is $300, with a minimum $10. Many shoe games in Ontario have exact or similar rules that you described your local shop has, aside from the table limits.

Just make sure that you make your trips worthwhile if you have to travel to find better games. Anyways, hope you do well,

Rob.

 

[sagefr0g]

.........

But there's something that still concerns me. Bet spreading. The more I think about it, and the more I read about 1-10 spreads, the more I think playing in Ontario isn't going to work.

Here in Ontario, there is a province mandated $100 table max. (I've been told about the province mandate, but I know for sure about the $100 max at the casino I go to). At the casino I go to, a "charity" casino called the Great Blue Heron, they use CSM on all the $5 and $10 tables, and even on some of the $15(!!!). I've seen $15/$100 tables that are shoe-dealt (as above), with ~75% pen. That means that at minimum, I have a $15 unit. Realistically, I'd have to look at a $25 unit. That means I have at best a 1-6 spread, and at worst a 1-4 spread.

Given that spread, I have to wonder-- can I hope for anything beyond a break-even?

The only other thing I can think of is to pass off a bunch of my chips to my brother, and tell him to "piggyback" my bets when I tell him to. But, in my mind, nothing shouts "heat" more than physically giving chips to someone and saying "bet with me, this is going to be good".

Any thoughts?

hey halcyon if those joints allow mid-shoe entry then wonging in would be about the best you could do aside from betting behind your brother or some one. if you can wong in then you can flat bet the minimun and come out ahead.

 

[EasyRhino]

I would guesstimate that a 1-4 spread vs. a 6d shoe would be almost exactly break-even. Plus, having $100 max bets would result in pretty darn high variance. You got $5000-$15000 to bankroll?

So yeah, I'd recommend wonging like a fool. Even with your brother backlining you with another $100, you're still looking at a 1-8 spread, which isn't ideal.

Early this year I didn't want to risk much money and had only a $5-$25 spread, still managed to increase it by wonging hard and good luck.

 

[Kaiser]

Also keep in mind that wonging doesn't guarantee anything. Very recently I've sat through majorly negative shoes and won most of the hands, and also gone through majorly positive shoes and lost my shirt.

In fact in my last dozen hours of casino play I've *only* done well in neutral or negative shoes. Go figure.

 

[EasyRhino]

Yeah, it's just that wonging is sort of the only option when your min bet is the same as your max bet.

 

[halcyon1234]

I think your first problem is trying to hustle money from a charity casino lol jk jk. Well, I guess that is if you believe in karma. But seeing as how I do not, let's think rationally.

Keep in mind that this is a "charity" casino. It's an Indian casino, and it's fairly obvious that the charity is something along the lines of the Fund To Keep Out Legs From Getting Cold By Insulating The Pockets With Hundred Dollar Bills.

The rules you describe can be beaten. Aside from your bet spread, think about trying to play only in positive counts. That will surely increase your EV. You also have a good idea to play as a team with your brother. Just make sure you agree to share your winnings if he will be placing the big bets lol.

I think that wonging out is an option, not so much for the wonging in. The GBG is a relatively small casino. On a good day, they MAY have two non-CSM BJ tables going, and on a really good day, there'll be players at both. Even if the pit critters weren't paying attention to wongers, there just isn't any oppertunity to wong-in. Though if there is, I'll be sure to take advantage of it.

I'm not sure where you heard about this "$100 table max" in Ontario. This must just be at your local shop, because I have been to several casinos in Ontario (non-charity), and they all had max bets well beyond $100. In fact, the lowest table max I have seen in Ontario is $300, with a minimum $10. Many shoe games in Ontario have exact or similar rules that you described your local shop has, aside from the table limits.

Actually, that's good news. I guess I was fed some misinformation about the table max. I think some friends of mine are planning a Niagara Falls trip soon. I'll have to go with and take advantage of a larger spread.

Just make sure that you make your trips worthwhile if you have to travel to find better games. Anyways, hope you do well,

Yup, must factor gas/bus fare into my winnings. No point in spending $30 in gas to win $20. =)

Thanks!

 

[halcyon1234]

I would guesstimate that a 1-4 spread vs. a 6d shoe would be almost exactly break-even. Plus, having $100 max bets would result in pretty darn high variance. You got $5000-$15000 to bankroll?

So yeah, I'd recommend wonging like a fool. Even with your brother backlining you with another $100, you're still looking at a 1-8 spread, which isn't ideal.

Early this year I didn't want to risk much money and had only a $5-$25 spread, still managed to increase it by wonging hard and good luck.

I might have to wong a $15-$30 spread until I build up a bigger bankroll. Then
I can take it to Fallsview and lose it all back with a proper spread.

 

[bluewhale]

first off, you're posting in the wrong area, bet spreading isn't a vodoo strategy.
secondly, i also live in ontario and i second what someone said about there not beign a 100 max. third, if you're goign to the niagara area, go to fallsview, casino niagara is completely CSM (the hundred min tables might be hand dealt).

also your bet spreading thing... couldn't u just play more hands on a higher count, you already said the place isn't crowded. so yeah, just spread to 2 hands on a high count.