Casino Cheating at Blackjack

[ccibball50]

I currently went to a casino and dropped $435 in 7 shoes. I began to suspect that the casino was cheating. I was playing a Double deck game with 75% penetration on average. I played with one other player for all but 2 shoes. I played about 70 hands total. My small bet was 5$ my large bet was $30 (2 of the bets were 50$ because I let emotion get envolved.) The average bet was probably $20 to $25. Each shoes ended with +8 count using the hilo system. What are the chances of that happening? I asked to see the cards, their response was "all the cards are there". I then replied then you should have no problem letting me see the cards. They called someone to see if it were posible for me to see the cards, they denied and shut the table down as soon as I got up. The count was as high as +16 (running count) I do not worry about true count when the runing count is that high in double deck, so I do not know what the highest true count was. I started hitting 16 vs 10 with a +8 count and made a hand most of the time. Was this casino cheating? What is the probability of this happening in a casino?

 

[actuary]

Wow, they actually shut the table down? I've never seen that before.

As for how likely it is that you lost at a fair game or ending at a TC of +8, I cannot say because you haven't given us enough information. However, I can say that people have lost a lot more than what you did spreading $5-50 at a fair game, and in a shorter amount of time.

 

[ccibball50]

What more info do I need to give? I will do the best I can. Now, this was not one shoe ending in +8, but it was 7 consecutive shoes ending in between +8 and +16.

My betting strategy was
TC
+1 - $5
+2 - $10
+3 - $15
+4 - $20
+5 - $30

2 of the bets at a + 13 and +11 were $50.(I lost what I had on the table and pulled out a hundred and dropped it in 2 hands.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Where did this happen? PM me.

 

[callipygian]

I currently went to a casino and dropped $435 ... I played about 70 hands total ... The average bet was probably $20 to $25. ... What is the probability of this happening in a casino?

The chances of you losing 20 more bets than you win out of 70 hands is not unusual at all.

The standard deviation for one hand is about 1.15, and the standard deviation for 70 hands is 1.15*sqrt(70) = 9.6 units. You had a 2.5% chance of being down by 19.2 bets or more just based on sheer probability, that works out to be between -$380 and -$480.

 

[21forme]

The chances of you losing 20 more bets than you win out of 70 hands is not unusual at all.

The standard deviation for one hand is about 1.15, and the standard deviation for 70 hands is 1.15*sqrt(70) = 9.6 units. You had a 2.5% chance of being down by 19.2 bets or more just based on sheer probability, that works out to be between -$380 and -$480.

While this is true, the fact that the count went very plus time after time suggests some tens or aces were missing.

 

[ihate17]

Need to at least watch a lot more hands

While this is true, the fact that the count went very plus time after time suggests some tens or aces were missing.

Those kind of counts would make me suspicious enough to perhaps count down the next several shuffles. I just finished playing about 20 hours of double deck in several places and had two counts in that time that got up that high but in both cases the counts came way down before the shuffle. Had one, with a plus 11 count with slightly less than a deck left but on that hand there were two blackjacks (one was thankfully mine) and a bunch of other high cards taking the count down to plus 3 in one hand.

This game had 75% pen but had it been a 50% pen game the stack would have died at +11. So besides the possibility of cheating, there is the possibility of a high card clump being behind the cut card for several shuffles.
What was the pen on this game?

ihate17

 

[moo321]

The loss isn't suspicious. Having high counts 6 decks in a row is a little suspicious. Refusing to let you see the cards is more suspicious. Probably nothing, though.

 

[rollem411]

I currently went to a casino and dropped $435 in 7 shoes. I began to suspect that the casino was cheating. I was playing a Double deck game with 75% penetration on average. I played with one other player for all but 2 shoes. I played about 70 hands total. My small bet was 5$ my large bet was $30 (2 of the bets were 50$ because I let emotion get envolved.) The average bet was probably $20 to $25. Each shoes ended with +8 count using the hilo system. What are the chances of that happening? I asked to see the cards, their response was "all the cards are there". I then replied then you should have no problem letting me see the cards. They called someone to see if it were posible for me to see the cards, they denied and shut the table down as soon as I got up. The count was as high as +16 (running count) I do not worry about true count when the runing count is that high in double deck, so I do not know what the highest true count was. I started hitting 16 vs 10 with a +8 count and made a hand most of the time. Was this casino cheating? What is the probability of this happening in a casino?

That does seem to me very suspicious. However, these things do happen. Is the casino a "hole in the wall" compared to high end? Also, how long have you been playing at this particular casino?

If it's only a DD game and the count had ended at +16 running count, that means there should be an abundance of 10's OR they removed some of them. However, if they removed 10's and you ended numerous times with such a high + count, you should be able to tell that a deck is short of lets say 5,6, or even 7 high cards. What else they could have done is took out high cards and added in extra low valued cards.

What you can do here is count how many times you see an individual card,(Just bet the min. and play BS) Try it a few times by strictly sticking with the 4 spades and than switch to another card and then another and another. If you are really trying to catch these people, if you spend long enough, you may find that instead of 2, there are 3 of one card and they are caught red handed adding extra low cards to the game. It would be a lot harder in a multideck, but in your case the DD might be worth the effort to try and get a lawsuit if it's possible.

Also, ensure 100% accuracy here or else you will have your plate full if you do end up confronting them and you are wrong.

Good luck

 

[jack.jackson]

I thought the Casino's had to show you the deck, upon a player's request. Does anyone know the stipulation behind this?
The fact, that, they wouldnt show you the pack, followed by immediately shutting down the table, does sound pretty suspicious.

 

[creeping panther]

Question

I currently went to a casino and dropped $435 in 7 shoes. I began to suspect that the casino was cheating. I was playing a Double deck game with 75% penetration on average. I played with one other player for all but 2 shoes. I played about 70 hands total. My small bet was 5$ my large bet was $30 (2 of the bets were 50$ because I let emotion get envolved.) The average bet was probably $20 to $25. Each shoes ended with +8 count using the hilo system. What are the chances of that happening? I asked to see the cards, their response was "all the cards are there". I then replied then you should have no problem letting me see the cards. They called someone to see if it were posible for me to see the cards, they denied and shut the table down as soon as I got up. The count was as high as +16 (running count) I do not worry about true count when the runing count is that high in double deck, so I do not know what the highest true count was. I started hitting 16 vs 10 with a +8 count and made a hand most of the time. Was this casino cheating? What is the probability of this happening in a casino?

Who cut the cards and could you watch the shuffle?

Let us know what part of the country this was in, OK.

I do not like the sound of this.

CP

 

[FLASH1296]

The proper procedure in the many jurisdictions that i am familiar with is to immediately report the casino to the Casino Control Commission [or whatever it is called] - on the casino floor. There should be a "gaming commision" podium/counter/office/booth, etc. If you cannot find it, ask any security guard.

Many years ago I had an Atlantic City Casino deal me cards that were not "washed" prior to their being put into play. Little did I know - I was a newbie. I got crushed of course. A day later I found out that I could report them. I went to the on-duty New Jersey Casino Control agent, who promptly informed me that they will run back the tapes and if i am correct the casino wil be fined $10,000 per occurrence. Problem was I could not recall the hour, or the pit that I had played in, no less the table. The agent added that if I had simply come to them immediately, they would have little trouble finding the proper taped evidence.

The next event was in another A.C. Casino. I had just been "half-shoed" and needed to cash out; when the cashier short-changed me several thousands of dollars ! I angrily refused to move from the cage window until a Casino Control Officer arrived. They ran the security tapes back and the short-changing was corrected.

In some states the casino is on Indian Reservation land and depending upon the "compact" agreed upon with the state, casino problems may be handled by the State Police, the Tribal Gaming Council, etc. Basically it is always "caveat emptor" for you regarding ANYTHING that occurs on sovereign Indian Reservations. Not that long ago one of the California Indian Casinos was caught using marked cards against the hapless patrons. They actually admitted it, but refused to reimburse losses or take any other actions beyond saying that they would take steps to see that it would not happen again."

So ... what we all want to know is - where did this take place?

p.s. As a footnote I would like to say that the patron has absolutely no right to examine the cards upon demand. This is because they are given the opportunity to witness the compulsively careful (time-consuming) examination of both sides of each individual card. Normally casinos will do this in a hand-held game every two hours, although the time period can be much longer if it is a face-up game where the players are not touching the cards. The casinos do NOT need to have patrons present to witness this procedure, although I think that that should be obligatory.

 

[EasyRhino]

Dive or nice?

Shoe or pitch?

How often were the cards switched?

Shuffling method? ASM?

As others mentioned, the loss is not special, but a shoe continually ending with high counts is suspicious.

Was it spanish 21?

 

[Automatic Monkey]

...The next event was in another A.C. Casino. I had just been "half-shoed" and needed to cash out; when the cashier short-changed me several thousands of dollars ! I angrily refused to move from the cage window until a Casino Control Officer arrived. They ran the security tapes back and the short-changing was corrected.

I've been shorted at the cage after getting backed off too. You could tell it was done to send a message, because they shorted me exactly what I had won. I'm surprised AC would sweat a win like that.

In some states the casino is on Indian Reservation land and depending upon the "compact" agreed upon with the state, casino problems may be handled by the State Police, the Tribal Gaming Council, etc. Basically it is always "caveat emptor" for you regarding ANYTHING that occurs on sovereign Indian Reservations. Not that long ago one of the California Indian Casinos was caught using marked cards against the hapless patrons. They actually admitted it, but refused to reimburse losses or take any other actions beyond saying that they would take steps to see that it would not happen again."...

Far worse than any of that is a shipboard casino. Carnival Cruises isn't going to risk the bad press of screwing a cruise passenger in the casino, but these little offshore gambling cruises are dirty and rough, and they do not always spread the cards. On one of them I saw a string of high counts similar to what the originator of this thread complains of, all night long. And not only do you have no legal recourse whatsoever for gaming issues, the ship's personnel can make serious trouble for you- detaining and searching you is legal under the rights of ship captains and you could get robbed or abused. Now a ship captain potentially faces much greater penalties than you do for misbehavior at sea (theoretically including the death penalty) but good luck in proving what happened.

 

[Kasi]

Each shoes ended with +8 count using the hilo system. What are the chances of that happening?

If you mean a TC of +8, chances of 7 shoes in a row finishing with a count that high are basically zero. You were cheated.

If you're counting is accurate.

I've always wondered about the right to insist on seeing all the cards.

 

[mjbballar23]

Who cut the cards and could you watch the shuffle?

Let us know what part of the country this was in, OK.

I do not like the sound of this.

CP

Based on his previous posts i would say this happened in Mississippi, specifically Vicksburg. Based on a few other things i would go even further as to guess this was possibly the Rainbow Casino?

Note: Im not positive about this, just me being a detective.

Either way a running count of +16 in DD with no Tens and Aces coming out is certainly of concern.

 

[21forme]

Many years ago I had an Atlantic City Casino deal me cards that were not "washed" prior to their being put into play. Little did I know - I was a newbie. I got crushed of course.

Please explain "I got crushed of course."

 

[ccibball50]

Rainbow

Yes it is the Rainbow Casino in Vicksburg. Needless to say I will never go back there. the game was a DD pitch games. (sorry i said shoe in my first message) I never saw more than 2 aces come out either. I keep a side count of Aces as well. I was not as suspicious about the amount of money I lost either, becasue I have dropped close to that amount in a few shoes. I was suspicious about it ending in +8 count after every pitch. I cut the cards every time. I fluctuated (like I always do and I know that it has nothing to do with the way I cut in the long run, just something I like to do) The way I cut is thin, if that goes bad then thick, and then dead middle and so forth, If I win money I stay with the same type cut. Yes the gamming commision number was right in front of me, (I believe all casinos are required to post the number). I did not call them due to I was fearful that I would look like an idiot and all the cards would be there. Plus I feared I would be busted for counting (which I probably already am now.) However I had a friend with me who does not count (who is good cover, bets big and with no particular system and does not follow me) cards and he is actually the one who called requested to show the cards. However, I did get involved in the discussion afterwards. I have been playing there for about 8 or 9 months. I am an accurate counter. I have wone my share at this casino. I practice daily and read daily about cards. I have actually been counting for about 3 years now, but really started hitting it hard 8 or 9 months ago. This casino however, supposedly a professional casino, is the slum of the casinos in Vicksburg. Also I they did not change the cards at this game while I was at the casino.

 

[ccibball50]

More answers

To answew a few other questions I did not address above. The pen was 60% to 75% (this is where she put the cut card). I actually asked her to cut them deep, and she did for a couple of shoes. There was an automatic shuffler as well. Another bit of information, there were 2 sets of 2 decks used. Ex. One set was shuffeling while the others were being played, One blue deck, and one red deck. Now I am pretty sure there were the proper number of cards in the deck because the shuffler will show a red light if there are not enough and will say 103 cards or however many are missing. I have seen this from before on this exact same shuffler.

 

[Thunder]

I've seen cards get stuck in those shuffling machines before so maybe that happened to you but still that's highly suspicious.