Casino Violence

[cmaso]

Slightly off topic, but a relevant question - In "21", there are several scenes in which Laurence Fishburne plays casino security, "working over" suspected card counters in a back room of the casino. Does this really happen? I know that most casinos reserve the right to ban players they suspect of counting cards, but actual Sopranos-style beatings?

And if so, what makes a casino any more impervious to lawsuits than any other legal business (potential mob ties notwithstanding)? If someone were a customer at Macy's and got beat up by the staff in a back room, I'm pretty sure Macy's would get sued for millions and eventually have to settle, even if there weren't any direct witnesses.

Thought it might be wise to get the straight dope on this before attempting card-counting in a real casino.

 

[gus]

Slightly off topic, but a relevant question - In "21", there are several scenes in which Laurence Fishburne plays casino security, "working over" suspected card counters in a back room of the casino. Does this really happen? I know that most casinos reserve the right to ban players they suspect of counting cards, but actual Sopranos-style beatings?

And if so, what makes a casino any more impervious to lawsuits than any other legal business (potential mob ties notwithstanding)? If someone were a customer at Macy's and got beat up by the staff in a back room, I'm pretty sure Macy's would get sued for millions and eventually have to settle, even if there weren't any direct witnesses.

Thought it might be wise to get the straight dope on this before attempting card-counting in a real casino.

I was going to post the same question.

 

[callipygian]

It happens, ask James Grosjean.

Casinos get sued, ask James Grosjean.

Casinos generally do it with actual cheaters - people who are caught breaking the law and wouldn't go to the police if they got beaten up. For card counters, they generally just ban them, but occasionally someone gets the stupid idea to rough them up and then the casino ends up paying the lawsuit.

 

[cmaso]

Thanks for the info - interesting story.

(http://www.blackjackhero.com/blackjack/players/james-grosjean/ (Archive copy) for those interested...)

 

[Automatic Monkey]

It happens, ask James Grosjean.

Casinos get sued, ask James Grosjean.

Casinos generally do it with actual cheaters - people who are caught breaking the law and wouldn't go to the police if they got beaten up. For card counters, they generally just ban them, but occasionally someone gets the stupid idea to rough them up and then the casino ends up paying the lawsuit.

Exactly. Security guards are often stupid and unstable people, you can never be sure what they will do. I briefly had a job where I supervised unarmed, untrained security guards and the worst dregs are drawn to those kinds of positions. Unbelievable the things I've seen my own guards do, including assault me.

Be especially careful in Indian casinos where you can't sue them. Any justice you will get will have to be in criminal court, and it will be tough to get witnesses.

 

[White Guy]

Thats funny a friend of mine I was trying to get to learn BS so I could signal him in @ Vegas was afraid of that happening. I told him I would be happy if it did I would make more money off the lawsuit than counting cards.

 

[callipygian]

Thats funny a friend of mine I was trying to get to learn BS so I could signal him in @ Vegas was afraid of that happening. I told him I would be happy if it did I would make more money off the lawsuit than counting cards.

I have yet to see or hear of an example where someone was roughed up solely for counting cards. Even the Grosjean example was a little flavored - he was holecarding in one casino and associating with a holecarder in another.

For all the misconceptions that casinos have about card counting and cheating, they seem to generally treat card counting different from other forms of perceived "cheating" (holecarding is not cheating, either morally or legally, but is more often perceived as such because laws exist to prevent certain types of holecarding, such as using mirrors).

 

[Sonny]

Does this really happen?

Almost everything shown in that movie doesn't actually happen in real life.

-Sonny-

 

[gus]

Don't you think that the movie has created a lot of new "impromptu CCs" ... And thay may works as a "diversionary" at the tables?

 

[callipygian]

Almost everything shown in that movie doesn't actually happen in real life.

Not true!

MIT really does exist, as does Harvard Medical School and Las Vegas. And you can gamble in Las Vegas.

 

[kewljason]

Very true callipygian, but that samual jackson character was more like someone out of the 60's or 70's than the mid nineties. I think he would have fit in better in the movie "casino".:laugh:

It's funny how if you read the book, the movie is very different than the book. And the book was only "loosly" based on the facts. So that makes the movie twice removed! was entertaining though.

 

[callipygian]

And the book was only "loosly" based on the facts.

As I understand it, almost everything in the book is true to an extent, just either exaggerated, or a conglomeration of many different stories (or both). No single team went through everything the characters did, but many different people (from the 70's through the 90's) did experience similar things.

For example, the "Chinatown underground casino" in the book was, in actually, a casino located in Chinatown ... but for a charity event. It really was used as a training ground, but nobody threw a bag over the recruit's head and asked what the count was. They just cleaned out the charity casino and then spit on some homeless children on the way home for fun.

Another example is how a MIT janitor found a large stash of money ... just not in a secret hidden location. One of the team members accidentally left it on the table. And the team didn't eat the loss, they just spoke nicely to the dean and got it all back.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Not true!

MIT really does exist, as does Harvard Medical School and Las Vegas. And you can gamble in Las Vegas.

And the part where an engineering student doesn't get laid. I hear that happens sometimes.

 

[kewljason]

What are you saying Monkey? They should occasionally close the books and shower? Ok my bad. My apologies to any self discribed geeks.

 

[jaredmt]

what about AC casinos? do you think the back room thing exists there?

i was there a few weeks ago (i knew how counting works but didnt practice yet) and i was openly talking about this at a Roullette table. the dealer just laughed and jokingly told me that they will take me to a back room and the guy i was talking to said "i think you watch too much movies".

im just wondering cus my friend thinks all casinos r mafia-owned and they do the backroom thing hardcore when they catch people

 

[EyeHeartHalves]

Don't you think that the movie has created a lot of new "impromptu CCs" ... And thay may works as a "diversionary" at the tables?

YES!!! to your first part of your question. However, I'm not sure about the answer to the second part. By "they", I guess you meen these newbie CC's who just watched the movie and want to run out and try it? Do they divert the eyes of the personnel away from you as a skilled AP? Well, if that's what you meant, then I don't think so. (1) They will get to see bad CC's next to a good CC'r and better be able to tell the difference. (2) Any extra eyes on your game than usual is usually a bad thing.

However, could someone act like a crappy CC'r AND ACTUALLY FOOL THEM INTO THINKING SO? Yes, and will some casinos treat you VERY WELL if they think you are a bad CC'r as opposed to just a ploppy? Yes.

So, still not really sure what you meant by the second part of that question.

 

[farookhbj]

re:

Atlantic City is one of the few places where you can count without being asked to leave. They can't legally 86 you for counting. They can however pref shuffle, place flat betting restrictions etc. to make it hard on you if they suspect you are counting. The US "Mafia" connections related to gaming are all but gone. Not sure which is worse, greedy corporations or Mafia?

 

[EyeHeartHalves]

Lol

what about AC casinos? do you think the back room thing exists there?

i was there a few weeks ago (i knew how counting works but didnt practice yet) and i was openly talking about this at a Roullette table. the dealer just laughed and jokingly told me that they will take me to a back room and the guy i was talking to said "i think you watch too much movies".

im just wondering cus my friend thinks all casinos r mafia-owned and they do the backroom thing hardcore when they catch people

Well, the actual "back rooms" do exist in AC. I was in one. There is a seemingly endless hallway with many rooms that are mostly marked but many are "unmarked". LOL--One was a State Trooper's office. I was accompanying a lady friend back there who was pick-pocketed for three digits in that casino. She wanted to report it.

I grew up in these towns where the Sopranos takes place and I'm a CC'r. And I'm telling you to forgettaboutit! Tell your friend to turn off the Sopranos re-runs. Our former governer (I think his last name was Burns but I'm not sure.) made a world famous (At the time, it was covered by news media all over the world.) statement at a press conference for the opening of casinos in NJ. He said something to the effect that, "The God Damb mafia better keep their dirty hands away from Atlantic City!" He screamed it into the microphone. I wish we had politicians like that today but I digress. There are no mafiosos (as we you used to refer to them when I was on the street as a kid) involved with running any casino in AC.

Furthermore, thanks to the successful series of lawsuits begun by Ken Uston and continued by Tommy Hyland, no personnel ARE EVEN ALLOWED TO TELL YOU TO GET UP FROM THE TABLE FOR COUNTING CARDS IN AC!

--Halves

PS: If you live near Northern NJ and are SERIOUS about blackjack, PM me, I'd be glad to talk to you.

 

[21forme]

Whenever I've had an "AC backoff" as outlined above, either it has been without a word to me, or in the one case where someone spoke to me, exceedingly polite. NJ law says they have to deal to you, though they can make it unprofitable.

 

[ChefJJ]

no personnel ARE EVEN ALLOWED TO TELL YOU TO GET UP FROM THE TABLE FOR COUNTING CARDS IN AC!

Yeah, but just like 21 and Farookh attested to, they can make it so that counting is essentially ineffective at a level that we need to be able to operate. It's still best to have cover.

good luck