Counting Questions

[BeeJay]

I've played basic strategy for 13 years but I only play an average of once a year. I don't know my overall success rate (or lack thereof) but I probably have lost more than I made.

Last week I played about 20 hours in the same casino and was either super hot or stone cold. I ended up losing about $500. I played anywhere from $10 to 80 depending on how hot I was at the time and how the shoe was going. Not once did I get questioned about varying my bet or have anyone check on me (I think).

I ended up getting pretty friendly with several of the dealers who gave me the basics of card counting and told me to learn it when I got home. They claimed that their casino didn't really care about card counters. I can't really go into detail as to why without giving the casino away, but given the very relaxed atmosphere and the relatively small amounts being wagered I believe it. Most tables were $5 min and most of the time there was one $10 table in the entire place. A couple of nights there was an occasional $25 table and the highest max bet I saw was $300.

My first question is if the statement about not caring if people count cards is true. Has anyone ever run into casinos that don't really sweat counting ?.

Also, I plan on buying a book or two but first I want to see if counting is for me. I have been practicing the HiLo method to start and want to find a list of the indexes for that method. Does anyone have a link to one?

There were 2 games to choose from at my casino. 6 deck w/ hit on soft 17, split aces but no double, and 3/2 BJ. The other one was single deck with 6/5 BJ, hit on s17, split aces but no double after split, and a maximum in the number of hands that could be dealt depending on the number of players. One player was maybe 5? hands. 2-3 players was something like 3? hands (I don't remember for sure), 4-5 players was something like 2 hands. Anyway, they also dealt all card face up. Which one would you choose an a basic strategy player and which one would a counter play?.

I will have a lot more Qs once I see an index but until then that it for now. Thanks in advance

 

[shadroch]

Very few casinos will sweat a counter if they are playing low stakes.
What part of the country are you playing in?And why are you afraid to give away the casino?

 

[zengrifter]

I plan on buying a book or two but first I want to see if counting is for me. I have been practicing the HiLo method to start and want to find a list of the indexes for that method. Does anyone have a link to one?

We have all the indices and links - someone here can provide. Start with 'Counting Resources' at the top of this forum.

I recommend BJ Bluebook II by Fred Renzey and his KISS-3 count. Here are the tags to get you started:

KISS-3

R2 0*
B2 1*
3 1
4 1
5 1
6 1
7 0
8 0
9 0
X-1
A-1

*Only Black 2s count +1

KISS-3 is an "unbalanced" count, which means that you will not need to use fractional division to convert the running count to true count, as would be necessary with HiLo. zg

 

[Brock Windsor]

My first question is if the statement about not caring if people count cards is true. Has anyone ever run into casinos that don't really sweat counting ?.

Also, I plan on buying a book or two but first I want to see if counting is for me. I have been practicing the HiLo method to start and want to find a list of the indexes for that method. Does anyone have a link to one?

Which one would you choose an a basic strategy player and which one would a counter play?.

1. Most casinos don't care about counting if you play low stakes, especially at a game with the rules you decribed. In some jurisdictions card counters can not be banned. It is not a surprise your casino would not care about counters, they will make more money off people trying to count than they will lose to the few people who can beat the game.
2. Link to Illustrious 18: http://bjmath.com/bjmath/tcindex/i18index.htm (Archive copy)
3. Both a counter and a BS player would chose the six deck game paying 3:2 on Blackjack. 6:5 Blackjack is considered immoral by counters and is an extremely dishonest practice to dupe the uninformed public. It triples the house edge in the game you described.

 

[BeeJay]

Counting

Shadrock- I understood that it was bad form to mention specific casinos so that they wouldn't have a chance to change policies or be more watchful if they happened to read a post.

ZG- I did start with the counting resources and couldn't find a link. Also, thanks for the tip but what are tags and why do you recommend Kiss vs HILO

Brock- thanks

 

[bj bob]

But, in this case

Shadrock- I understood that it was bad form to mention specific casinos so that they wouldn't have a chance to change policies or be more watchful if they happened to read a post.

ZG- I did start with the counting resources and couldn't find a link. Also, thanks for the tip but what are tags and why do you recommend Kiss vs HILO

Brock- thanks

You want to expose these types of crappy rules. Let the whole world know that this 6/5 junk is a ripoff and that 6 decker is pretty sucko also. H17 and no DAS in a shoe game makes the game pretty pathetic, especially if the pen isn't great. Maybe some one in their management reads our Forum and the bad PR will get back to them.
The casinos that you want to keep quite about are the "too good to be true" houses that are offering some outlandish promo. and we don't want everybody and their mother milking them so they will last longer. The same goes for weak or flashing dealers, paying off more than they should or those who can't add up hands and think they busted on 21.
Case in point. Over the Christmas Holiday there was a fill-in dealer at a house in Lake Tahoe that I noticed was paying off with 8 reds instead of 7 on a straight up #. I was ALLLL over that game like stupidity on Capitol Hill! I played out that dealer's entire shift and told not a soul.

 

[zengrifter]

..what are tags and why do you recommend Kiss vs HILO

Tags are the card count-values. KISS is simpler because you won't need to convert your RC to TC. Get the Bluebook! Buy it here. zg
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/store/blackjack-bluebook-ii.html

 

[BeeJay]

Crappy rules

The crappy rules were on a Royal Caribbean cruise ship. I should also clarify though that in the 6D game you could double after a split, just not aces. There was also good penetration at least.

Now, for the illustrious 18 index.

I think I understand the basic premise, but I want to make sure.

15 vs 10- lots of high cards so no longer hit when you get to +4
10,10 vs 5 split b/c of the high 10s at +5
13 vs 2- hit b/c you have extra low cards
same thing w/ 12 vs 5 or 6, and 13 vs 3

But, I don't get 16 vs 10 or 12 v 4 at a zero. Why should you change bs at 0
Does 9 vs 2 change to a hit or a DD at 1
Same w/ 9 vs 7
I also don't get 16 v 9. Why hit at +5 when there are all those extra 10s.

 

[bj bob]

On the very edge

The crappy rules were on a Royal Caribbean cruise ship. I should also clarify though that in the 6D game you could double after a split, just not aces. There was also good penetration at least.

Now, for the illustrious 18 index.

I think I understand the basic premise, but I want to make sure.
But, I don't get 16 vs 10 or 12 v 4 at a zero. Why should you change bs at 0

.

These two plays are "zero" index situations, in other words they are virtually dead even as to whether you hit or stand. With the 16 v 10 you hit your 16 against a dealer 10 until the count reaches up to, but not including "0", stand at any count of "0" and above, likewise with the 12 v. 4.
I'll leave the rest of your list to the rest of our compatriots on the forum or you can do some homework from the suggested books.

 

[zengrifter]

The crappy rules were on a Royal Caribbean cruise ship. I should also clarify though that in the 6D game you could double after a split, just not aces. There was also good penetration at least.

Now, for the illustrious 18 index.

I think I understand the basic premise, but I want to make sure.

15 vs 10- lots of high cards so no longer hit when you get to +4
10,10 vs 5 split b/c of the high 10s at +5
13 vs 2- hit b/c you have extra low cards
same thing w/ 12 vs 5 or 6, and 13 vs 3

But, I don't get 16 vs 10 or 12 v 4 at a zero. Why should you change bs at 0
Does 9 vs 2 change to a hit or a DD at 1
Same w/ 9 vs 7
I also don't get 16 v 9. Why hit at +5 when there are all those extra 10s.

Indices are of no value to you if you don't convert RC to TC with HiLo. zg

 

[Kasi]

I've played basic strategy for 13 years but I only play an average of once a year. I don't know my overall success rate (or lack thereof) but I probably have lost more than I made.
Last week I played about 20 hours in the same casino and was either super hot or stone cold. I ended up losing about $500. I played anywhere from $10 to 80 depending on how hot I was at the time and how the shoe was going.

I guess my first question would be are u planning to play alot more than u have in the past?

And of course what kind of bankroll you would be committing for how many hours of play in what game.

Just sounds to me if u don't know if u've won or lost over 13 years, but probably lost, that u've been having alot of stress-free EV fun.

I don't think card-counting will make u rich or anything if that's what ur thinking.

 

[BeeJay]

Tc

I knew that and was talking about situations where the count had been converted. It doesn't make sense to me to change bs and take a hit w/ a 16 against a 9 when the tc is +5.

In practicing I also ran into a few things that stumped me. I just had a +10 tc in a 2d game and would have a hand like 15 against a 10. BS says hit but since that case wasn't on the I18 I wasn't sure whether to hit or not. I busted almost every time since there were so many 10s left. My instinct was to assume that if I had more than 18 scenarios that the applicable one would have said stay. Am I right. Am I better off memorizing more than the I18, or once I get the books and understand the theory better will these be stupid questions. I have spent countless hours reading articles by wong, Don S, etc the last few days but I still need to get the book.

 

[bj bob]

I knew that and was talking about situations where the count had been converted. It doesn't make sense to me to change bs and take a hit w/ a 16 against a 9 when the tc is +5.

In practicing I also ran into a few things that stumped me. I just had a +10 tc in a 2d game and would have a hand like 15 against a 10. BS says hit but since that case wasn't on the I18 I wasn't sure whether to hit or not. I busted almost every time since there were so many 10s left. My instinct was to assume that if I had more than 18 scenarios that the applicable one would have said stay. Am I right. Am I better off memorizing more than the I18, or once I get the books and understand the theory better will these be stupid questions. I have spent countless hours reading articles by wong, Don S, etc the last few days but I still need to get the book.

I think you're misinterpreting the charts there, Sir. The example of 16 v. 9 is to deviate from BS by standing, not by hitting this hand when the count(TC) reaches or exceeds your index number, in this case +5. BS would suggest hitting this without knowing the count, hence the deviation.

 

[BeeJay]

good questions

I guess my first question would be are u planning to play alot more than u have in the past?

And of course what kind of bankroll you would be committing for how many hours of play in what game.

Just sounds to me if u don't know if u've won or lost over 13 years, but probably lost, that u've been having alot of stress-free EV fun.

I don't think card-counting will make u rich or anything if that's what ur thinking.

I probably won't play much more but I might if I could make some money. I'm not too far from AC so I could head there a couple of times per year if I mastered a system.

BR depends on how good I get. In general I don't like to lose much money even though I make a VERY good living.

I won about 2k on a BR of 200 about 7 yrs ago and since then I usually lose a few hundred bucks a couple of times in a row before I break even or win a couple of hundred. This week I lost $500 which was my biggest loss ever.

Like I said, I don't expect to get rich. I make 200k already and simply don't like losing at a game that I love to play so I thought it would be nice to get some skills to hopefully win some spending money occasionally.

 

[Canceler]

Similarly, with 9 vs. 2 or 7 you would usually hit. The index tells you when to double.

Not trying to be nasty here BeeJay, but are you sure you know basic strategy?

 

[BeeJay]

I think you're misinterpreting the charts there, Sir. The example of 16 v. 9 is to deviate from BS by standing, not by hitting this hand when the count(TC) reaches or exceeds your index number, in this case +5. BS would suggest hitting this without knowing the count, hence the deviation.

yeah, duh to me. I'm so turned around trying to understand the theory behind these things that I'm twisting my thinking all around. Thanks

 

[BeeJay]

Similarly, with 9 vs. 2 or 7 you would usually hit. The index tells you when to double.

Not trying to be nasty here BeeJay, but are you sure you know basic strategy?

No offense taken. Now that I reread my post, I'd probably ask the same thing if someone else had posted what I did. Anywaym, yes. You might not know it from some of the questions (or the way that I have phrased them) but I know basic strategy very well. There are a few uncommon hands like soft whatevers where I have to check the card to remember the exact cutoff for DD or not, but 98% of the card I know immediately.

My problem (I think) is that I am overthinking things with the counting. I'm assuming that a valid tc changes things (which it does) but I'm losing sight of the forest for the trees and trying to overanalyze the reasoning behind it and getting turned around occasionally.

 

[Kasi]

I probably won't play much more but I might if I could make some money.
BR depends on how good I get. In general I don't like to lose much money

I'd say BR assumes you play really good whether it's small or large.

The question is how much u bet and when with what risk. If $500 is the most u've lost in all those years, after 20 hours of play, I wouldn't really worry about it.

Maybe I should ask how much u take on a trip, how long u expect to play, and how you bet the game the game u talk about it (or how u would bet it if u counted).

Like u say u bet 10-80 when there are $5 tables around - I assume u r playing all hands?

So, if u counted, spreading 1-8, playing all hands, how would u play if u counted? And with how much money for that trip?

 

[bj bob]

Raining on your parade?

I certainly don't want to be a party pooper here: however, if you're squimish about losing $500 in a session then certainly card counting is definitely not for you. If you're playing a shoe game in AC , even at a $5 min. table (good luck there!) to be in an effective winning position, your top bet needs to be at least 8U ($40) and more preferably 10+(play all). To sustain that play your BR will need to be in the neighborhood of $5K and at least $2K for a trip. You shouldn't even bat an eye about losing a session's worth in a few hours. That's happened to all of us here. The real problem that I see is that the volatility you are going to be exposed to at max. bet levels. If you're not ABSOLUTELY sure of how to make plays in this "highly charged" segment of the game, you're going to get slammed big time. This is when the bets are the highest, where the adrenlin rushs,where BS deviations are more frequent and where over/under betting either leaves your EV crashing or wipes out your BR muy pronto.
Just a few things to contemplate before you take that big plunge.

 

[Kasi]

Just a few things to contemplate before you take that big plunge.

At last - I'm not alone! :grin: