craps

[sagefr0g]

i'm just starting learning how to play craps.
from what i'm seeing i'm thinking a decent strategy would be to mainly bet the pass line and always take true odds on the point.
but i'm wondering would taking lay bets for 6 & 8 be a decent gamble with the above strategy?

 

[SleightOfHand]

i'm just starting learning how to play craps.
from what i'm seeing i'm thinking a decent strategy would be to mainly bet the pass line and always take true odds on the point.
but i'm wondering would taking lay bets for 6 & 8 be a decent gamble with the above strategy?

I was also recently learning craps. WoO has some good info.

Lay bets on 6,8 has 4% HA

 

[UK-21]

I'm learning craps too - for when Mrs Newb and I make it to Vegas.

Seems to me to be a good idea to always have something in the come box after a point has been made, and to take full odds on that too if you can afford it. Covering the 7 at 4-1, in order to offset losses if one comes up pays poor odds and is only good for the next roll of the dice?

Out of interest, I'm told that there is only one casino in the whole of the UK that has a craps table, so it's not something us brits normally get into. But I like the idea of playing a game where the house edge is only around 1% - it'll make the holiday money go further.

The craps simulator at WizardofOdds is very good.

Newb99
UK

 

[ChefJJ]

i'm just starting learning how to play craps.
from what i'm seeing i'm thinking a decent strategy would be to mainly bet the pass line and always take true odds on the point.
but i'm wondering would taking lay bets for 6 & 8 be a decent gamble with the above strategy?

Pass w/ Odds is always a solid play.

Laying the 6 & 8 is tough to overcome the house's 5% commission. The house edge on combined Place 6 & 8 is only about 1%...much better.

good luck

 

[ChefJJ]

Seems to me to be a good idea to always have something in the come box after a point has been made, and to take full odds on that too if you can afford it. Covering the 7 at 4-1, in order to offset losses if one comes up pays poor odds and is only good for the next roll of the dice?

Just my opinion:

The Any Seven bet that pays 4-1 is a ripoff...all things considered, so you are right about that.

Regarding volleying Come bet after Come bet, it's not too bad of a deal. Consider this, however...the strength of a Pass Line/Come bet is during its come-out roll. The player has a 33.3% advantage for this roll only, which is factored into the overall house edge around 1.4 (lower for each multiple of odds you take). Look at this example:

Say you have a $10 Pass Line bet that has come out, resulting in a point of 6. This wager is now operating at a decent disadvantage (about 9%) because the 7 is working against you. Being a smart player, you take your Odds on that Line bet to take some of the sting out of that edge. Now you are looking at making the Come bet...what is it's advantage? The power of the 7 works for you for the next roll only, but it is dampened by the fact that a 7 will now kill your Pass with Odds.

My opinion on this situation: If you are going to volley Come bet after Come bet to get those wagers established on numbers, TAKE AS MUCH ODDS AS YOU CAN. This is the only saving property of forgoing the strength of those wagers (the 7 during the comeout). Otherwise, be satisfied with your Pass w/ Odds and maybe Place the 6 and/or 8. These are all low-edge wagers.

good luck

 

[COLORMEUPPLEASE]

Learn how to "place bet".

You have more options with place betting than you do when you play the Pass Line.

1. You get to choose the number.
2. You can increase or decrease your place bet anytime.
3. You can take down your place bet anytime.
4. You can turn off your place bet anytime.
5. You only have to hit your place bet once to win. (you have to hit the Pass line twice to win. Once to establish the point, second hit to win.)

 

[callipygian]

i'm thinking a decent strategy would be to mainly bet the pass line and always take true odds on the point.

What's the goal of your strategy?

It's very dubious as to whether anyone can beat craps, so if your goal is to make money, the best bet is probably to not play. Pass line with odds is fine, don't pass with odds is the best bet you can make. Anything else is mostly for the impatient - all the other bets carry a much higher house advantage.

If you get bored waiting for point to be made (or not made), you can always place Come/Don't Come bets with odds, which have the same HA as Pass/Don't Pass. But the co-variance is high - one seven could wipe out 20 units.

 

[ChefJJ]

If you get bored waiting for point to be made (or not made), you can always place Come/Don't Come bets with odds, which have the same HA as Pass/Don't Pass. But the co-variance is high - one seven could wipe out 20 units.

Saying that a Come bet with Odds has the same HA as the Place bet with Odds when you are making both is slightly incorrect. It is correct in a bubble...see my post above. The strength in the Pass or Come bets is during the comeout roll, otherwise you are facing a steep disadvantage. Understand that the Pass Line or Come bet's 1.4 or lower HA factors both the large 33.3% PLAYER'S advantage during the comeout with the 9 - 33% (depending on the point number) HOUSE advantage.

Making a Come bet(s) when other Place or Come bets are established essentially negates your edge during its comeout roll...a 7 winner kills those other Pass or Come bets.

I still contend that being patient with a single Pass or Come bet with Odds is extremely solid. Making a Place 6 or 8 bet "only" carries a 1.5% house edge, and just like COLORMEUP says, it is removable. Additionally, the combined Place 6 AND 8 move has an overall 1% house edge...very solid as well.

good luck

PS - This just goes to show that there are a TON of ways to bet craps.

 

[sagefr0g]

What's the goal of your strategy?

i want to become fabuously wealthy.lmao.
no really just gambling i guess with hope of best survival chances (ie. get to play some have fun, have chance to win some in short term but still have the best survival chances i can far as losing some bankroll)

It's very dubious as to whether anyone can beat craps, so if your goal is to make money, the best bet is probably to not play.

right, one site i was reading claimed there are no known craps professionals.
probably oughta maybe mean something as far as making money.

Pass line with odds is fine, don't pass with odds is the best bet you can make. Anything else is mostly for the impatient - all the other bets carry a much higher house advantage.

ok that's what i was thinking. i been having a hard time understanding all that but it's pretty much the conclusion i arrived at so far.

If you get bored waiting for point to be made (or not made), you can always place Come/Don't Come bets with odds, which have the same HA as Pass/Don't Pass. But the co-variance is high - one seven could wipe out 20 units.

ok thanks i'll study up on that.
how about the place bets on 6 & 8 i was asking about?

 

[ChefJJ]

If anyone cares, a post I did a while back from my blog similar to our discussion here:

Let's start by looking at the Place 6 & 8 bet. It's really simple enough to say that there are ten ways to roll a winner ($14 payoff on $12 wager), and six to lose both bets. In each roll of the dice that these wagers are out, you've got a 27.8% chance of winning $14, a 16.7% chance of losing $24, and a 55.5% chance that nothing happens for you. That equates to a 1.04% house edge for each roll of the dice...not bad at all.

The Come bets are a little bit more complicated because they act differently before and after they travel to a number. Remember that the Come bet is pretty much exactly like the Pass line, except that the timing of the bet is different (made after the come-out roll). Before the bet travels, it has a sizeable 33.3% advantage for the player because of the eight ways to win compared to only four ways to lose. After that, though, the Come bet is at the mercy of the point it travels to (see the discussion on the Pass Line bet).

Looking at the pros and cons of these two types of bets, it's safe to make the following observations:

• The Come bet gets you in on the biggest player advantage available on the craps table: a 33.3% edge on the roll before the bet travels to a number.
• Odds bets can be added to the Come bet once it travels.
• The Place 6 & 8 combo offers a continuous low 1.04% house advantage at all times.
• Both the Odds bet (with the Come) and the Place bets allow you to increase, decrease, or remove at any time.
• Notwithstanding a natural win of the Come bet, it takes two hits on the same number (once for it to travel, and a second to win) to win; whereas the Place bet would be collected twice in that same period.
• If you already have a Pass Line or a Come bet(s) established when your Come bet wins on a natural 7, it is more than likely a push or overall loss. In that case, the Come bet is acting more like a hedge bet than one that is taking full advantage of the powerful 7.
• So, there it is. A rundown of the Place vs. Come bet debate...still not resolved, and still up in the air. I personally prefer the Place bets because of two factors: the continuous low house edge and the fact that a 7-winner on a Come bet probably means an overall loss for me, considering that I typically already have a Pass Line bet in play. But this is one situation that no matter which way you go, they are both good decisions as far as craps bets go.

To factor DC into the mix here, you really want to think hard about what numbers you are targeting in a particular situation. If you are getting good results on targeting, I think that getting in heavy by Placing those numbers would ensure a quick return on that investment. To take it to another level, one could even Place the targeted numbers and jump on board with Come bets as well. Without doing any math, a dialed-in DC could get the Come bets to travel to those numbers with the Place bets, parlay the winnings and the original bet into a big odds bet, and go for a quick repeater. That's somewhat of an all-or-nothing proposition, but if you've got the skills...it's time to pay the bills!

 

[sagefr0g]

I was also recently learning craps. WoO has some good info.

Lay bets on 6,8 has 4% HA

right woO is where i learned what i learned so far.
how about place bets on 6,8? isn't that differant than lay bets? lol, don't know i'm lost.

 

[sagefr0g]

Pass w/ Odds is always a solid play.

Laying the 6 & 8 is tough to overcome the house's 5% commission. The house edge on combined Place 6 & 8 is only about 1%...much better.

good luck

thank you Chefjj. so a single place 6 say or a single place 8 has a higher HA than placing 6 & 8 at the same time?

so but essentially placing 6 & 8 is more of a gamble than pass line with odds sort of thing?

kind of make the question if you want to gamble a bit more sort of issue?

 

[ChefJJ]

thank you Chefjj. so a single place 6 say or a single place 8 has a higher HA than placing 6 & 8 at the same time?

so but essentially placing 6 & 8 is more of a gamble than pass line with odds sort of thing?

kind of make the question if you want to gamble a bit more sort of issue?

You'll have a very hard time finding online that kind of info. But when you evaluate house edge, you're weighing amount you stand to win vs. what is at risk with the probability of winning vs. losing...etc. So, knowing that Placing either the 6 or 8 pays 7:6 vs. a 6:5 probability of losing that bet, you can calculate the ~1.5% house edge (HE).

If you Place both the 6 & 8, you are faced with the same payout 7:6, but a change in what is at risk...(assuming a base $6 bet) $7 per winner : $12 per loser. However, the probability of winning has increased as well to 6:10. Doing the math with these figures, you get ~1% house edge.

The thing about craps is that there are many separate bets, but rarely are they made "in a bubble". Determining the house's overall edge on your combined bets can be difficult, but the rule of thumb is that combining low-edge bets with other low-edge bets is safe. However, the example of volleying Come bets after Come bets or a Place bet neutralizes where those bets get their low house edge...the power of the 7 during the comeout.

Something to think about.

good luck

 

[nc-tom]

right woO is where i learned what i learned so far.
how about place bets on 6,8? isn't that differant than lay bets? lol, don't know i'm lost.

Sage there are 5 basic bets for craps. pass line with as much odds as you can afford to take.Place bets on the 6 or the 8. come bets with as much odds as you can afford to take. Dont come bets. check the wizards or scobelets sites for the numbers.

 

[SleightOfHand]

It's very dubious as to whether anyone can beat craps, so if your goal is to make money, the best bet is probably to not play.

Actually, I began considering to learn how to play craps from Wong's website, which claims that it is indeed beatable after you have learned how to properly throw the dice. I think I remember reading that he stopped playing blackjack and moved on to craps.

 

[ChefJJ]

how about place bets on 6,8? isn't that differant than lay bets? lol, don't know i'm lost.

Without explaining too far (you'll probably see it on the blog), Placing a number means you are wagering it will be rolled before a 7. The payouts are nipped a bit (to give the house their edge), with the edge being less with the 6 or 8 than the 5 or 9, which is less than the 4 or 10.

Laying a number means that you are betting the 7 will be rolled prior to that number. Your payout is the inverse of the dice' natural odds (meaning you will be paid less than what the wager is), but the player must pay a 5% commission to make this bet. The commission essentially makes it a relatively high edge bet when compared to those below 2%, but can be OK in certain situations (esp. on the 4 or 10).

good luck

 

[sagefr0g]

Sage there are 5 basic bets for craps. pass line with as much odds as you can afford to take.Place bets on the 6 or the 8. come bets with as much odds as you can afford to take. Dont come bets. check the wizards or scobelets sites for the numbers.

thanks for the response nc-tom. got a question about where you say "with as much odds as you can afford to take".
question being does that mean that not going for all the odds you can get doesn't have a downside or at least doesn't have a 'significant' downside as far as the gamble is concerned?

 

[ChefJJ]

thanks for the response nc-tom. got a question about where you say "with as much odds as you can afford to take".
question being does that mean that not going for all the odds you can get doesn't have a downside or at least doesn't have a 'significant' downside as far as the gamble is concerned?

Not to be an ass by cutting in here, but wagering more on the Odds does nothing to reduce the probability of the bet winning or losing. Once the Pass or Come bet has traveled to a point number, you are at a disadvantage because the winning bet will pay even money...but you are up against the 7 (6 ways to roll it vs. 5, 4, or 3...depending on the point number). What the Odds bet does is pay you according to your risk (i.e. 6:5, 6:4, or 6:3, respectively). Therefore, this no-edge wager, when combined with a Pass or Come bet, dilutes that disadvantage...bringing it down towards 0%, but never really getting there.

To make a long story short, more Odds shaves away at the house's substantial edge when the Pass or Come bet travels to a point (6 or 8: ~9%, 5 or 9: 20%, 4 or 10: ~33%).

good luck

 

[sagefr0g]

Not to be an ass by cutting in here, but wagering more on the Odds does nothing to reduce the probability of the bet winning or losing. Once the Pass or Come bet has traveled to a point number, you are at a disadvantage because the winning bet will pay even money...but you are up against the 7 (6 ways to roll it vs. 5, 4, or 3...depending on the point number). What the Odds bet does is pay you according to your risk (i.e. 6:5, 6:4, or 6:3, respectively). Therefore, this no-edge wager, when combined with a Pass or Come bet, dilutes that disadvantage...bringing it down towards 0%, but never really getting there.

To make a long story short, more Odds shaves away at the house's substantial edge when the Pass or Come bet travels to a point (6 or 8: ~9%, 5 or 9: 20%, 4 or 10: ~33%).

good luck

i think i got it. like where nc-tom was talking about going with the odds that you can afford sort of thing, then yeah it might dilute the shaving off of the edge house advantage that taking odds gives you but it's not the end of the world ie. poor folks gotta do what poor folks gotta do. lol.
or maybe scarity cats are gonna do what scarity cats are gonna do too :cat:
might just shave a little off of one of those nine lives not taking full free odds such as the case may be. so don't be a scarity cat if you can afford it, maybe.

 

[ChefJJ]

After the Pass or Come bet has traveled to a point number, here is how the Odds bet affects the house edge:


You can see that by simply making a 1x Odds bet (same amount as the Pass/Come bet), the house edge is cut in half. That's substantial, and says a lot for just wagering a little more...but the house edge is still significant. The edge is different depending on what the point number is, but the reduced edge rendered by each multiple of Odds is the same across the board (Step Change, and Change from 0x).

What this also shows you is the "hole" a player is in once the Pass/Come bet goes past the comeout roll. You go from a 33% advantage to at least a 9% disadvantage.

good luck