CSM - Can fed in cards be dealt right away?

Discussion in 'Skilled Play - Card Counting, Advanced Strategies' started by gobbledygeek, Jun 22, 2006.

  1. gobbledygeek

    gobbledygeek Well-Known Member

    Does anyone know how the ShuffleKing shuffle machine works? I was wondering if the fed in cards are shuffled into the deck immediately and thus can possibly appear in the next round of cards or whether there is a delay. Is there already a buffered queue of cards that awaits to be dealt and if so how many cards are in this queue?

    My local casino only has CSMs so I just flat bet the minimum with basic strategy and count for fun. Yesterday I noticed the running count hit +17 with about 3 of the 5 decks remaining (true count about +5) but then the discarded cards were fed into the ShuffleKing. I was curious if the next round could possibly be played with that count or if it was absolutely necessary to reset to 0. I was third base with 5 other players at the table.
     
  2. SystemsTrader

    SystemsTrader Well-Known Member

    I wish people wouldn't play against these machines even if theres no alternative. That's the one sure way to keep them out of the casinos. I guess its your money but I don't see how playing basic strategy and flat betting can be fun when you will lose your money to the machine. But if you can find some flaw in the machine which will give you an edge then all the power to you.
     
  3. gobbledygeek

    gobbledygeek Well-Known Member

    I'd play a better game if one was available but unfortunately I believe all B.C. lower mainland casinos use CSMs (though if anyone knows otherwise let me know). My uninformed guess is that all casinos could go to CSMs tomorrow and in the long run it wouldn't even put a dent in the number of players (seen as how most play for entertainment, as I do).

    The main question is with regards to whether the ShuffleKing has a card queue and how many cards are in that queue. Since one card is always visible that means at the very least there is a one card queue, I was curious if the queue is any longer or does it randomly draw a card from the machine per draw. My guess is that it probably has a queue of some number of cards cuz wouldn't drawing a card from the machine on every draw slow down the dealing?
     
  4. Sonny

    Sonny Well-Known Member

    According to the Shufflemaster company the new machines do not suffer from the same latency of redistribution problem that the older models did. I have been told that the new models are still beatable, but I cannot say for sure. The old machines were beatable once you clocked the number of rounds it took to redistribute the cards, but that took quite a bit of observation and some tricky calculations (see Get The Edge at Blackjack for more info on clocking CSMs).

    As far as I know the machines usually hold 4-6 decks of cards. I’m sure they have 8-deck machines as well but I have not seen one. If you want to know how many decks are being used you can always ask the dealer, or you can do it the hard way:

    http://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/appendix13.html

    For more information on beating CSMs read ZenGrifter’s interview, Get The Edge at Blackjack, the Shufflemaster website, the Shufflemaster patent applications (which will have internal schematics as well as full descriptions of the technology used), and the Borisbj21 page ((Dead link: http://www.borisbj21.com/Page28/page28f.html)). Be aware that the advice on the Boris site is completely idiotic, but the descriptions of the machines are pretty good. I believe they can be beat (especially the old ones!), but it will take a huge amount of homework. There are many different ways to get an advantage.

    So the casino dealt out two decks of cards before reinserting the discards? That is odd. Usually they reinsert the discards after every round. You may be able to take advantage of that situation if you play it right.

    -Sonny-
     
  5. gobbledygeek

    gobbledygeek Well-Known Member

    Really depends on the dealer as to how many cards pile up in the discard tray before re-inserting them into the machine. Some will do it after every round or two, others will let the tray build up to about 1 deck while others forget and let the discard tray pile up until the machine won't spit out any more cards (about 2 decks). Count rarely has time to get increase/decrease very much but it does sometimes go to +/- 4 on last round.

    Thanks for the info. I'm not sold on the shuffle tracking at all. Still interested if there is a queue of cards not affected by the cards being re-inserted (thus can take advantage of one more round at a high count) - similar to "latency of redistribution" mentioned in articles I think but not quite as hokey. :)
     
  6. Sonny

    Sonny Well-Known Member

    Why is it hokey to calculate the size of the queue using statistical methods? I'll admit that it is very cumbersome, but it is probably a more reliable method of beating a specific machine than using a generalized approach based on the machine's make and model. There's more than one way to find the size of the queue, and clocking the specific machine is probably the quickest and most accurate method. It'll also save you a lot of time reading schematics. :)

    -Sonny-
     
  7. gobbledygeek

    gobbledygeek Well-Known Member

    I wasn't aware any of the articles mentioned a statistical way of calculating the queue; I only gleaned over some of the articles, I'll have to reread them when I get some time. I thought most of the articles had to do with attempting to estimate what clumps of cards were gonna show up next (something that is way beyond me, plus seems a little fishy).
     
  8. Sonny

    Sonny Well-Known Member

  9. sagefr0g

    sagefr0g Well-Known Member

    not sure how it works but....

    i had an opportunity to see inside of the shuffleking csm one time. the machine jammed on the dealer and the pit boss came and opened it up. the inside of it has like a ferris wheel. the cards when they are inserted in the top feed into the "seats" of the "ferris wheel". each "seat" looked as if it held about five or six cards. i'm not sure how many "seats" were in it. but since the thing could hold up to eight decks i'm guessing there would have been about fifty two seats. that about how it looked also. so from what i could tell what the thing does is that wheel spins in there and feeds a certain number of cards to the slider where the dealer pulls the cards from the machine.
    so i wouldn't say the thing has a buffer so much as it has probably five or six cards sitting in the tray waiting for the dealer to pull them along with the other fifty two or so "seats" that are holding about five or six cards in this wheel that is spinning about waiting to accept and deliver more cards.
    that was my take on it gobblygeek so i hope this helps.
    best regards,
    mr fr0g :D
     
  10. gobbledygeek

    gobbledygeek Well-Known Member

    That would be my guess too. If that was the case I would be able to use an advantagous count for one more round after the discarded cards are fed back into the machine, but probably only if I was playing heads up with the dealer.
     
  11. sagefr0g

    sagefr0g Well-Known Member

    perhaps....

    i don't know. you might glean a very small advantage that way. what i've done before was to wong in on csm tables after seeing an extrordinarily heavy slew of low cards cover the table. just play one round at the table minimun then jump right back out. i'm not sure it works as i haven't found a way to simulate a csm game but i've had fair results doing that. your mileage may vary.

    best regards,
    mr fr0g :D
     
  12. ortango

    ortango Well-Known Member

    As I mentioned elsewhere, at my local casino they play out about 1 deck before putting it in the machine. Once I saw a +19 RC before he put the deck in and got a few good hands in. I'm pretty sure I'll never see that again.
     
  13. beyondbj

    beyondbj Well-Known Member

    usually the dealer have to put back all cards after each hand

    but i dont know the machine will shuffle all card each time put back ??

    actually i try to just count two games big or small card for deciding to put a big bet only for many small cards come out , but i get a big loss that time

    is CSM beatable ?
     
  14. Sonny

    Sonny Well-Known Member

    Yup, the used cards will be reinserted into the shoe after each round. You might even see some of the same cards come out on the next round. Unless you have done extensive research into the machine you should assume that each round is dealt from a full, freshly shuffled shoe.

    Yes, but it is usually not worth the effort. It takes an enormous amount of research and practice to learn how to beat some of these machines. Your time would be much better spent playing better games.

    -Sonny-
     
  15. beyondbj

    beyondbj Well-Known Member

    give me some hints for how to beat a CSM

    i have no idea
     
  16. Sonny

    Sonny Well-Known Member

    From previous posts in this thread:

    For more information on beating CSMs read ZenGrifter’s interview, Get The Edge at Blackjack, the Shufflemaster website, the Shufflemaster patent applications (which will have internal schematics as well as full descriptions of the technology used), and the Borisbj21 page ((Dead link: http://www.borisbj21.com/Page28/page28f.html)).

    Clarke Cant talks about beating CSMs in his monumental work:
    http://www.bjrnet.com/archive/BlackjackTherapy.htm

    There's more than one way to find the size of the queue, and clocking the specific machine is probably the quickest and most accurate method. It'll also save you a lot of time reading schematics.


    Most of what you need to know can be found by searching the web as well.

    -Sonny-
     
  17. beyondbj

    beyondbj Well-Known Member

    if csm can be beatable

    can any one tell me briefly what should i do

    such as use which counting system or bet stragery?

    and any special stragery have to use ??

    i m still not understand how to do after reading those long articles :(
     
  18. marquoise

    marquoise New Member

    Info on the one2six

    Here is a description of my current understanding of the one2six shuffler as relayed to me by a sharp dealer:

    Firstly the machine can be set to use between one and six decks of cards, hence the name.
    For Blackjack, casinos will almost invariably use 6 decks (312 cards).

    Inside the shuffler is a rotating drum with 38 separate compartments for storing cards.

    As cards are inserted into the top, the drum will rotate at an unknown amount for each inserted card, and
    the inserted card will become the last card in the compartment.

    The compartments will each store anything from zero up to a maximum of 10 cards.

    Once 10 cards are stored the machine is ready to eject these cards into the buffered queue for play,
    (in the same order they are stored in the compartment).

    The buffered queue stores 1-2 sets of 10 cards at any given time.
    Once the machine has detected the buffered queue is down to 10 cards it will then eject the entire contents of another full compartment right beneath the 10 cards that are already there.
    In other words 10-20 cards in the output queue at any given time. Thereby ensuring that the front of the machine will never run out of cards.


    I said earlier that the drum rotates an unknown amount with each inserted card.
    The only evidence that I have on this was one time I got to see the inside of the machine as it was being loaded, this was at the opening of the BJ table and the machine jammed on the 3rd card. When the staff opened the machine, the 2 cards that had successfully been loaded were placed 2 segments apart from each other, with the 3rd card ready to follow suit. In other words, for the first 3 cards, the machine inserted 1 card and then moved 2 compartments for the next one. This is by no means a random sequence, so I have my doubts that the machine would have continued
    with this very predictable progession. I will confidently say that the storage disk rotates in a clockwise direction when looking at it from the last box.

    Assuming that the dealer popped the cards back into the machine at the end of every hand, (something which rarely happens), the soonest you would possibly get any of those cards back out the other end would be 21 cards later, and it would likely only be only one card. As a general rule, since the inserted cards are going behind the existing cards in the compartments, most of those cards won't come back out for quite a while.


    What I have seen from my experiences playing many hands from these machines is that they are anything BUT random. Runs of cards and clumping are fairly common. I am still working out a way to reliably exploit them, but I am happy to share with you what I have already discovered so far.........


    It is common for the dealer to draw a 20/21 off a 5 or 6 face card when dealing from these machines. This is a disaster for us, when we always stand on low totals from basic strategy. For this to happen, there needs to be clumping of low cards, which seems to happen way too often. Even when the high cards clump together, the dealer will draw 20 and only the lucky players will get by with a stand off. I have often seen seasoned players break with the basic strategy and treat the dealers 5 or 6 like it is an Ace and hit aggressively on totals up to 16.

    So how might we exploit the one2six..........? I have been taught by the skilled players (on the higher limit tables) to watch out for the rare situation when the machine is running hot. Specifically this means there is a nice mix of mostly high cards with a few low cards coming out. These cards will bust the dealer most hands. The table will be full of people, but we will only open 3-4 boxes and will back-bet each other to the maximum allowable amount. There are also a lot of winning perfect pairs bets at these times, usually one or more every hand. I suspect that the cause is the machine burys the 5's and 6's somewhere in it's bowels and the dealer simply can't build a decent hand until they re-emerge. I have seen these fantastic cycles go from anything between 5-30 hands. By the time the cycle ends and everything is balanced again, the dealer will have given away thousands of dollars. These cycles happen on the cheap tables too, but nobody really wins much, maybe a run of a few wins at $5 a pop, for a half a dozen hands. Never lasts long when all seven boxes are open, and the $5 players never know to increase their bets and milk it.

    Learn how to spot these cycles, when they happen, and only have a small number of boxes open when they do (to get more hands out of the rare situation), and bet big until it stops. Of course, this effect can happen dealing from a regular BJ shoe as well, but I think that the difference is that the effect and length of time can be far more pronounced from an automatic shuffler.

    Who knows, maybe card counting can provide a way to detect these cycles from the one2six before they actually come about.
     
  19. Mr. T

    Mr. T Well-Known Member

    Why do people play slot machines when that is a sure way of losing money. Yet many many poeple do it maybe including yourself.
     
  20. bigbjfan

    bigbjfan Well-Known Member

    I have a casino just a couple miles from my house that uses almost exclusively these CSM's. On a few occasions, I have backcounted on these things modifying KO to use a 5 decks, as this is what the CSM's at this place are fed. I found the same thing that marquoise did, is that there is a lot of clumping high's and lows. I'd like to continue and see if this thing can be expolited. Thanks marquoise for your input and confirmation of my findings as well.
     

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