Define pro?

[blackchipjim]

I know that it's a question that has been asked and answered a thousand times. What is a pro advantage player and what defines them apart from the rest. Is it the lifestyle, the money, the bandroll or is it just and attitude?
I myself am no pro no way possible considering the bankroll requirements and time that must be invested. If a person plays with advantage and by definition plays like a pro and has shown that they can consistintly profit from his play is he a pro or just a good player?
I'm not trying to be funny or start a hubbub about who is and who isn't a pro just asking to see who has the ATITTUDE of pro even if your br can't afford you to be.

 

[Slick]

In the most literal sense, a professional is someone who earns a living at something instead of doing it for fun (although they can have fun as well, and hopefully they do) like an amateur would.


Pro has some other meanings too. In casual talk pro is someone who is damn good at what they do, but that isnt really what it's about.

 

[Pro21]

To me the term pro is short for professional, and means the person derives the majority of their income from it.

 

[daddybo]

To me the term pro is short for professional, and means the person derives the majority of their income from it.

Okay, Word-of-the-Day... ( courtesy of Merriam and Webster)

Main Entry: 1pro·fes·sion·al
Pronunciation: \prə-ˈfesh-nəl, -ˈfe-shə-nəl\
Function: adjective
Date: 1606
1 a : of, relating to, or characteristic of a profession b : engaged in one of the learned professions c (1) : characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical standards of a profession (2) : exhibiting a courteous, conscientious, and generally businesslike manner in the workplace
2 a : participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs <a professional golfer> b : having a particular profession as a permanent career <a professional soldier> c : engaged in by persons receiving financial return <professional football>
3 : following a line of conduct as though it were a profession <a professional patriot>

 

[Automatic Monkey]

It's a good question, and it has different meanings in different contexts.

If you have a plumbing license, you're a professional plumber. But if you buy a pizzeria, work there full-time, and retain your license and work one day a week for your friend's plumbing company, are you still a professional plumber or a professional pizza maker? Both, I would say, although you're a part-time plumber.

In the area of sports, you're a professional as soon as you get paid to play. That includes your first minor league game, but no one can survive on an A-ball salary so even though they are pro athletes A-league ball cannot be your primary means of support. Same for the vast majority of professional musicians.

To categorize AP, I'd say we are closer to athletes and entertainers in that we need skills but no credentials to practice. So in one sense anyone who applies AP skills on a regular basis with a mathematical expectation of earning money is a professional. On the other hand, the IRS criteria for being a professional "gambler" are quite high and few would ever meet them in terms of being able to treat your AP business as a business for purposes of tax accounting. But who cares? It's a sub rosa activity and the terminology and standards of the rest of the world aren't applicable.

 

[shadroch]

It's quite subjective. I know a guy who haunts the downtown pits and does an almost daily coupon run. His goal is to grind out $50 -$100 a day and get a least one free meal. Ask him what he does,and as long as he's not sitting at a BJ table,he'll tell you he's a professional gambler.
My vet, Dr "X" flies to Vegas almost every Friday and returns on Monday morning. He plays at the $200- 500 and recently bought a townhouse there,out of his winnings. A typical weekend will produce winnings or losses in the five figure range,but he'd never consider himself a pro.

 

[QFIT]

Someone that gets paid -- e.g., a prostitute.

 

[21forme]

My vet, Dr "X" flies to Vegas almost every Friday and returns on Monday morning. He plays at the $200- 500 and recently bought a townhouse there,out of his winnings. A typical weekend will produce winnings or losses in the five figure range,but he'd never consider himself a pro.

From NYC -every weekend?!

BTW, why do you see a vet? I thought AM and Ferret were our only resident animals. :grin:

 

[shadroch]

He goes around 48 weekends a year. It's not that bad,I've done it a few times.Remember, you gain three hours going west,so if you leave NY at 1PM, it's only 3PM when you get in to Vegas. Coming back, he takes the red-eye and sleeps most of the way,I'd imagine.
He's actually my Goldendoodles vet,but I like to consider him as mine.

 

[blackchipjim]

definitions

I really like daddybo's reply #3 by difinition of acting or conduct of. That is about really what I was trying to bring about in the thread. We don't have that many pros here that I know of. I think the non-pro out numbers the pros by a mile. If we go by the looser term I think there are many more that conduct themselves as if they did derive a living out of it. The hard core " I do this for a living " definition is one way of thinking. The other would be that we play like a pro so therefore we are.

 

[JulieCA]

I really like daddybo's reply #3 by difinition of acting or conduct of. That is about really what I was trying to bring about in the thread. We don't have that many pros here that I know of. I think the non-pro out numbers the pros by a mile. If we go by the looser term I think there are many more that conduct themselves as if they did derive a living out of it. The hard core " I do this for a living " definition is one way of thinking. The other would be that we play like a pro so therefore we are.

This discussion is somewhat similar to the "must you be published to be considered a writer" discussion that goes on in the writers' forums.

I'd say there are a couple of definitions from the M&W that describe the majority of people here. There's nothing there that says you must derive your major income from something in order to be a professional.

What term would you (UGU) use to define the different levels of players and how would they be ranked?

 

[Automatic Monkey]

...What term would you (UGU) use to define the different levels of players and how would they be ranked?

I don't know if ranks would necessarily be appropriate for AP's. Being the goal is to make money, you could say a player who uses advanced techniques on a variety of games is "better" than a guy who grinds away at shoes with a level 1 count, but if the latter plays at much higher stakes for more hours and makes more money, who outranks whom? Sometimes a very straightforward, wholesale approach to AP is the most profitable in a particular venue.

I'd say the best AP's are the ones who take their advantage where they find it, and apply their skills and resources most efficiently while not losing opportunities by getting shut out of too many games. All else is commentary.

 

[daddybo]

:IMHO.. I think you would have had done this for a living at some point to be considered a pro. I say this because, unless you have ever been in the situation where the majority of your income is coming from something as volitile as advantage gaming .... then you probably don't know what it really takes to put the bucks out there and know that failure is more than just an ego bruise. It's the real deal. Real failure. Real pain. No replenishable bankroll. Your done.

That's not to say there aren't some great semi-pros playing around. But they don't have it "all" on the line. It makes a big difference.

I guess its this.. If you have done it for a living, you're a pro... if not, then your just a "very good blackjack player."

 

[Bojack1]

I think being a pro is a subjective term. I also think most players that do make AP play their principal income, get insulted by those who claim to be pros even though it is not their main source of income. I do not get insulted by such things however. If one plays with a professional attitude and is actually playing a positive EV game responsibly, I have no problem acknowledging them as pros. It has been my experience that not all full time players, or supposed "pros" play in a professional manner. Thats why I believe the term pro in this sense can be subjective. You can argue semantics and dictionary explanations for technicalities, but in reality if you have skill and discipline to play with a positive edge always, that is handling your business as a professional and I have no problem with said person being deemed a pro. The problem lies with the actual honesty of ones professionalism. I know of very few who actually do play with the mindset of what I would call a pro.

If you do not know what to expect of your game before you play it, even sometimes, you are not a pro.

If you cannot stick to the plan previously laid out before play due to emotional overload, you are not a pro.

If you play with funds that effect your decision making, you are not a pro

If the rush of the gamble is greater than your realistic expectation, you are not a pro.

If you turn your AP skills "off" sometimes to just have fun, you are not a pro.

If playing is considered your price for entertainment, you are not a pro.

There is nothing wrong with being any of these things, some people gamble for fun and entertainment, and as long as that is realized, have fun. But as recreational player not a pro. This is just my opinion by no means a factual definition of what a pro is.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

I think being a pro is a subjective term. I also think most players that do make AP play their principal income, get insulted by those who claim to be pros even though it is not their main source of income. I do not get insulted by such things however. If one plays with a professional attitude and is actually playing a positive EV game responsibly, I have no problem acknowledging them as pros. It has been my experience that not all full time players, or supposed "pros" play in a professional manner. Thats why I believe the term pro in this sense can be subjective. You can argue semantics and dictionary explanations for technicalities, but in reality if you have skill and discipline to play with a positive edge always, that is handling your business as a professional and I have no problem with said person being deemed a pro. The problem lies with the actual honesty of ones professionalism. I know of very few who actually do play with the mindset of what I would call a pro.

If you do not know what to expect of your game before you play it, even sometimes, you are not a pro.

If you cannot stick to the plan previously laid out before play due to emotional overload, you are not a pro.

If you play with funds that effect your decision making, you are not a pro

If the rush of the gamble is greater than your realistic expectation, you are not a pro.

If you turn your AP skills "off" sometimes to just have fun, you are not a pro.

If playing is considered your price for entertainment, you are not a pro.

There is nothing wrong with being any of these things, some people gamble for fun and entertainment, and as long as that is realized, have fun. But as recreational player not a pro. This is just my opinion by no means a factual definition of what a pro is.

Excellent definition. Phrasing it as an adverb, you can call anyone who is playing professionally, meaning in accordance with the standards of the profession, a pro, even if he happens to have another profession too.

Although my one disagreement is about playing with funds that affect your decision making. Your bankroll has to affect certain decisions; choice of games, choice of techniques, spread, and it would be unprofessional to not take your funds into account when making these decisions. Maybe a better way to put it, would be allowing the magnitude of the funds you are playing with affect your judgment to the point it causes you to make unwise decisions.

 

[FLASH1296]

I.m.o.

A Professional Player is someone who, for a lengthy period of time, has lived without income derived from sources other than advantage play.

Earnings have been sufficient to permit her/himself to live in a style that they consider satisfactory, so that they are not sponging off others or
living in a rusty Buick or in a cardboard box under a bridge. :laugh:

There are skilled A.P.'s who are Semi-Pros.
Probably several thousand in number.
Full-timers are probably two hundred plus.

 

[JulieCA]

Excellent definition. Phrasing it as an adverb, you can call anyone who is playing professionally, meaning in accordance with the standards of the profession, a pro, even if he happens to have another profession too.

Although my one disagreement is about playing with funds that affect your decision making. Your bankroll has to affect certain decisions; choice of games, choice of techniques, spread, and it would be unprofessional to not take your funds into account when making these decisions. Maybe a better way to put it, would be allowing the magnitude of the funds you are playing with affect your judgment to the point it causes you to make unwise decisions.

I would agree. It's a business decision and any business makes decisions based on funding/availability of funds and credit. Hence, layoffs and cutbacks. Having run a business, I'm off the opinion that anyone who runs a business makes informed decisions but there are just as many factors out of your control that can cause your income to shrink or expand. I have a former client I'm suing for $50K in outstanding invoices - playing blackjack for a living would've been been less of a risk and I wouldn't be out the money I paid someone to actually do the work.

 

[daddybo]

In some professions... you are really only a professional when your peers think you are. Regardless of what you think you are.

 

[Bojack1]

Although my one disagreement is about playing with funds that affect your decision making. Your bankroll has to affect certain decisions; choice of games, choice of techniques, spread, and it would be unprofessional to not take your funds into account when making these decisions. Maybe a better way to put it, would be allowing the magnitude of the funds you are playing with affect your judgment to the point it causes you to make unwise decisions.

Agreed, this is a better way to explain it.

 

[kewljason]

I think you can make an argument for either side, and we have here, but in reality it's just a label. Each of us will come to our own definition of what a "pro" is in relation to blackjack. I did want to comment on daddybo's post though. As he stated and Flash also hinted at, there is a bit of a different mindset when your entire income and livelihood comes from this source, that I don't think you can posibly understand unless you experience it.

The semi-pro or parttime player who experiences a long negative flucuation and runs low on funds can simply take a break and rebuild his bankroll. Since he has another source of income, it's no big deal. His life goes on pretty much the same. Even if it isn't a matter of funds running low, he can simply take a break of several weeks or even months and get refreshed before playing. The player who's sole income comes from blackjack play doesn't have that luxury. If he doesn't play, he doesn't make any money.

I personally have 7 consecutive losing weeks as we speak. The 4 weeks prior to that I was unable to play while recovering from a broken collarbone. Thats nearly 3 months of no money coming in, only going out while at the same time your bankroll begins to shrink. I don't think anyone who has other sources of income can come close to understanding this experience. And my streak is mild so far. I have heard people tell of year long losing streaks. god forbid.

I know that people that don't rely solely on blackjack for their income can't understand what that really means, by some of the conversations I have had concerning RoR. I play at tiny RoR well below 1%. Certainly nowhere near the optimal growth rate. The comments I have received from people thinking I'm leaving money on the table by doing so, clearly shows they don't understand the value of protecting a bankroll, without which you are out of business. And why would they. Most would just simply raise a new BR and continue on.

So, while I'm not going to define "pro" as someone who's sole living comes from blackjack, there certainly is an element there that semi-pro's or parttimers can't understand. It's something you have to experience.

:IMHO.. I think you would have had done this for a living at some point to be considered a pro. I say this because, unless you have ever been in the situation where the majority of your income is coming from something as volitile as advantage gaming .... then you probably don't know what it really takes to put the bucks out there and know that failure is more than just an ego bruise. It's the real deal. Real failure. Real pain. No replenishable bankroll. Your done.

That's not to say there aren't some great semi-pros playing around. But they don't have it "all" on the line. It makes a big difference.