Difference between DD pitch and face up?

[21forme]

Suppose you have 2 DD games with identical rules. One is dealt face down and the other face up? What is the difference in advantage to a counter?

 

[daddybo]

The only difference I know of.. (assuming pen and rules are the same) is you are able to "see" a little deeper in the deck on a face up game as opposed to a DD game dealt face down. (Count slightly more accurate).Having said that .. I usually know what most players have in a DD/SD game anyway.

The main reason for dealing a face up game is so players don't have a chance to handle the cards.

 

[21forme]

That's what I mean. Knowing all the cards on the table may affect your playing decision based on the index numbers. Is it a significant difference?

 

[daddybo]

That's what I mean. Knowing all the cards on the table may affect your playing decision based on the index numbers. Is it a significant difference?

Not usually... But sometimes it can help. Like I said, you will know most of the cards in a face down game if you are paying attention. Sometimes I just ask. :laugh:

 

[jack.jackson]

Of course, it makes no difference if your playing heads up. But as the number of players increase, the less accurate your playing decisions become, opposed to face-up. Dont know what the difference is, but obviously it is contingent based on the # of players at the table.

 

[SleightOfHand]

That's what I mean. Knowing all the cards on the table may affect your playing decision based on the index numbers. Is it a significant difference?

http://www.blackjackincolor.com/cardcountingextra1.htm

 

[21forme]

Thanks Sleight. SHould have known to check there first.

 

[creeping panther]

B-bo

The only difference I know of.. (assuming pen and rules are the same) is you are able to "see" a little deeper in the deck on a face up game as opposed to a DD game dealt face down. (Count slightly more accurate).Having said that .. I usually know what most players have in a DD/SD game anyway.

The main reason for dealing a face up game is so players don't have a chance to handle the cards.

BJ Master

Hey we have something in common, me too:laugh::laugh:

It is actually one of my specialties, an art in itself

Your student,
CP

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Thanks Sleight. SHould have known to check there first.

Just one thing to add to that: that chart is for peeking at one player's cards alone. Seeing all the down cards is a different story, especially if you are using a lot of playing indices.

 

[SleightOfHand]

Just one thing to add to that: that chart is for peeking at one player's cards alone. Seeing all the down cards is a different story, especially if you are using a lot of playing indices.

The simulation used full indeces, but yea, only 1 peek. However, at least for the DD game, I would think from the simulation that seeing a few more cards wouldn't make a significant difference. Even seeing a player's cards in the SD didn't make a huge difference.

 

[Thunder]

I could be wrong, but I believe when playing dd face down, it is highly advantageous (more so than usual) to be at third base assuming you don't have players willing to show their cards.

 

[DeTalores]

I was also under the impression that playing with indices on DD is where all the money is at, So having all cards face up/being at third base would seem way better than being dealt face down/first base?

 

[SleightOfHand]

I could be wrong, but I believe when playing dd face down, it is highly advantageous (more so than usual) to be at third base assuming you don't have players willing to show their cards.

The average BS player uses up 2.7 cards per hand. Therefore, each hand of face down BJ you can see .7 cards. If there are 4 other players at the table and the first player to act flashes his cards and you sit after him, you will see 2.7 other cards prior to playing your hand. If you sit after the 4th player, you will see 2.8 cards. If you can see more player's cards thats better, but otherwise, I would prob sit after the first player for the sake of not playing at third base which is where most counters like to sit.

PS: I retract what I said. I didn't consider the fact that some players will be doubling/splitting/busting, which are scenarios where you can see the player's cards. However, maybe the reply can still give you an idea of where you may want to sit for the purpose of seeing more cards for other scenarios.

 

[shadroch]

The major difference, and I do believe it is a major difference is that it's much easier to play scavanger BJ on a face up game. I'm not sure how to quantify it, but I get at least one, sometimes more chance to scavange a hand at the Ec each hour, while rarely get any at Terribles or the Wild West.

 

[Thunder]

The average BS player uses up 2.7 cards per hand. Therefore, each hand of face down BJ you can see .7 cards. If there are 4 other players at the table and the first player to act flashes his cards and you sit after him, you will see 2.7 other cards prior to playing your hand. If you sit after the 4th player, you will see 2.8 cards. If you can see more player's cards thats better, but otherwise, I would prob sit after the first player for the sake of not playing at third base which is where most counters like to sit.

PS: I retract what I said. I didn't consider the fact that some players will be doubling/splitting/busting, which are scenarios where you can see the player's cards. However, maybe the reply can still give you an idea of where you may want to sit for the purpose of seeing more cards for other scenarios.

The other thing you have to consider is that when you're at third base, you can see the hands of everyone who busts and partial hands of people who split/double down and use that for info whereas if you're at first base, you can't.

 

[Renzey]

Suppose you have 2 DD games with identical rules. One is dealt face down and the other face up? What is the difference in advantage to a counter?

Don't ignore the fact that a counter is easier, in fact a piece-o'-cake to spot in a face-up game. Small cards hit the board and your bet goes up? Big cards and the bet goes down? Floorperson doesn't even need to know how to count to notice this. I shy away from face-up double deck and go with inferring the other player(s) hole cards. There will never be many of them anyway. In absolute worst case scenario, face-down is the equivalent of a six card shallower cutoff -- for hand playing purposes only.

Shadroch did have an additional point though, regarding picking up some scavenger action.

 

[Billy C1]

Don't ignore the fact that a counter is easier, in fact a piece-o'-cake to spot in a face-up game. Small cards hit the board and your bet goes up? Big cards and the bet goes down? Floorperson doesn't even need to know how to count to notice this. I shy away from face-up double deck and go with inferring the other player(s) hole cards. There will never be many of them anyway. In absolute worst case scenario, face-down is the equivalent of a six card shallower cutoff -- for hand playing purposes only.

Shadroch did have an additional point though, regarding picking up some scavenger action.

Didn't think I'd ever question you on anything but----------how can your bet go down for THAT hand. You can't pick up chips. Before you bet the next hand, you've seen everyone's cards anyway.
Somehow, I'm missing your reasoning on this one.

BillyC1

 

[SleightOfHand]

Didn't think I'd ever question you on anything but----------how can your bet go down for THAT hand. You can't pick up chips. Before you bet the next hand, you've seen everyone's cards anyway.
Somehow, I'm missing your reasoning on this one.

BillyC1

He means the hand after the small/big cards come down.

 

[Billy C1]

He means the hand after the small/big cards come down.

I considered that but if that is the case-----the count is known before the next hand in all variations (face up, face down, whatever)

BillyC1

 

[SleightOfHand]

I considered that but if that is the case-----the count is known before the next hand in all variations (face up, face down, whatever)

BillyC1

But the PCs can see the cards much more easily. Busted hands / BJs are tossed early, and the PC may not remember all the cards that came out, which is what Renzey was talking about; how it is much easier to identify CCs in face up vs face down games.