Difference between DD pitch and face up?

[daddybo]

It doesn't make much difference one way or the other. IMHO

 

[Renzey]

It doesn't make much difference one way or the other. IMHO

In a face-down game, the pit has to remember or count all busted hands and BJ's, then add in the turned over hole cards to correlate your bets with the high vs. lows.
In face-up, just a quick view of the board, without counting can tip him off.

 

[Blue Efficacy]

Playing spot 7 on a full table on a DD game with 20-25 cards cut off, being able to see the cards can make a difference that cannot be discounted.

 

[jack.jackson]

Don't ignore the fact that a counter is easier, in fact a piece-o'-cake to spot in a face-up game. Small cards hit the board and your bet goes up? Big cards and the bet goes down? Floorperson doesn't even need to know how to count to notice this. I shy away from face-up double deck and go with inferring the other player(s) hole cards. There will never be many of them anyway. In absolute worst case scenario, face-down is the equivalent of a six card shallower cutoff -- for hand playing purposes only.

Shadroch did have an additional point though, regarding picking up some scavenger action.

Whats the general rule of thumb, to the "counting to inference" strategy, and do you use this based on other players, hit cards? Or whether they stand on a dealers strong or bust card?

 

[daddybo]

In a face-down game, the pit has to remember or count all busted hands and BJ's, then add in the turned over hole cards to correlate your bets with the high vs. lows.
In face-up, just a quick view of the board, without counting can tip him off.

I see your point, but it has been my experience when playing for The Eye to be more of a problem now-a-days. They will see and video all the cards anyway. The pit usually picks up on or becomes suspiciosus of a player if 1st. He is winning a significant amount of money, 2nd. He is varying his bet significantly. (especially methodically), and 3rd. the player is making certain "index" plays. In either a Face up or a Face down game they are usually keying on a particular player and aren't all that interested in "all" the cards. Also, usually the face down games are DD and SD and come with a much higher degree of scrutiny as opposed to the shoes.

 

[Billy C1]

I see your point, but it has been my experience when playing for The Eye to be more of a problem now-a-days. They will see and video all the cards anyway. The pit usually picks up on or becomes suspiciosus of a player if 1st. He is winning a significant amount of money, 2nd. He is varying his bet significantly. (especially methodically), and 3rd. the player is making certain "index" plays. In either a Face up or a Face down game they are usually keying on a particular player and aren't all that interested in "all" the cards. Also, usually the face down games are DD and SD and come with a much higher degree of scrutiny as opposed to the shoes.

Good points you make.
Being I chimed back in, would also like to say that any "wanabee" AP that has missed dealt cards before placing their next bet IS NOT good at what they're trying to do!

BillyC1

 

[Renzey]

Playing spot 7 on a full table on a DD game with 20-25 cards cut off, being able to see the cards can make a difference that cannot be discounted.

A seven-handed DD game is not a good animal. Even with the unusual pen you mentioned, you'll get in 3-to-4 rounds per shuffle, making 30% of your hands come off the top of a full pack. Your final bet before the shuffle will be placed with about 45 cards remaining, so the effective pen isn't nearly as good as it sounds in this very s-l-o-w game.

If you were playing that same spot in a face-down game, there would probably be 8 hole cards you couldn't see before playing your hand.

If the dealer's up-card is 7 or higher and those players have hit one time, count their hole cards as neutral. If they have hit twice, count them as a +1 or +2 depending on the size of the hit cards. If they stayed pat, give them about a -1.
If the dealer's up-card is 6 or lower and they have hit at all, give them a +2. If they stayed pat, disregard their hole cards until you see them. All this is just done on a temporary "fudging" basis in case it might affect your index decision. Save the official RC for actually viewing the cards.

Don't forget that on average, the sum of those unseen cards will be about zero. If you could literally see those 8 cards before playing your hand, you're merely updating your index decisions 8 cards deeper into the double deck -- nothing more, nothing less.

Some other things not mentioned about a crowded DD game is that with 20 or more cards dealt between rounds, the TC will vary widely from round to round. Your resulting bet sizes will have to be de-optimized too much, and then, you'll only get three or four rounds per shuffle in an otherwise excellent 75% pen game.

Now in a 60% three handed game, you'll get six rounds in and will have more flexibility in massaging your bets around. You'll still be sizing your last bet with about 50 cards remaining and there are likely to be maybe just two hole cards you'll need to infer. Plus, you'll get in roughly twice as many hands per hour.

 

[Blue Efficacy]

Just because a lot of my bets are off the top of the pack, doesn't mean I never have an advantage with them

Besides Insurance is the big difference maker in this situation anyway, and that cannot be determined by players hitting or standing until it's too late.

 

[Blue Efficacy]

Also shoe DD games are ever so much faster.