Diplomacy and Bully Tactics with other APs in the Same Casino

BOND

Active Member
#1
Recently a couple of APs requested that another AP to leave his BJ table, so they could come in and play his table. This AP refused and was not too happy with the bullying tactics from the other APs.

In a separate incident, one of these same bully APs came in on my BJ table where I had been playing for 1 hour. I got up and started backcounting his play, he became flustered and quickly left my table. He and I previously agreed not to invade each other tables, but he decided to break the agreement.

Have other APs experienced or seen similar run-ins with bully APs? Any ideas on how to handle bully APs?
 

BJgenius007

Well-Known Member
#3
BOND said:
Recently a couple of APs requested that another AP to leave his BJ table, so they could come in and play his table. This AP refused and was not too happy with the bullying tactics from the other APs.

In a separate incident, one of these same bully APs came in on my BJ table where I had been playing for 1 hour. I got up and started backcounting his play, he became flustered and quickly left my table. He and I previously agreed not to invade each other tables, but he decided to break the agreement.

Have other APs experienced or seen similar run-ins with bully APs? Any ideas on how to handle bully APs?
I hardly saw AP, let alone AP bullies. But I have seen a lot of ploppy bullies, they became mad if I don't play their way. One bully threatened to cut my hands if I hit 13, 14 again after TC stayed very negative for quite a period of time. I complained to pit boss and he told the ploppy that other players can play any way they want because it is their money to lose. The ploppy was not happy but he did not stop talking to me. He only told me the obvious BS like double my 9 against 5 or 6 etc, but did not say a word when I hit my 12 again.
 

BOND

Active Member
#4
Meeting Other APs

I have encountered dozens of other APs in casinos through the years; some of who I still maintain contact. Most are friendly and not bullys. :joker:

I guess its a matter of probabilty.
 
#5
Holecarders are even worse, they will try to force non-associated people out of the seat they desire, AP or not. It doesn't sound like a very productive strategy to try this on an AP. If I was counting a game and HC'ers tried harassing me, I'd just correct the dealer so I can continue counting in peace.
 
#6
ap

my problem is that ploppies are getting more intelligent, the man does not care about blackjack enough to play basic strategy right, but is aware enough to deduct that when i dont play he is more likely to lose.
i generally tell them to open one more box to change the legendary magical flow of the cards.
 

Friendo

Well-Known Member
#7
Automatic Monkey said:
If I was counting a game and HC'ers tried harassing me, I'd just correct the dealer so I can continue counting in peace.
This is just wrong. It should read "If I were counting a game and HC'ers tried harassing me ... "

Other than that, it's priceless.
 

johndoe

Well-Known Member
#8
Automatic Monkey said:
Holecarders are even worse, they will try to force non-associated people out of the seat they desire, AP or not. It doesn't sound like a very productive strategy to try this on an AP. If I was counting a game and HC'ers tried harassing me, I'd just correct the dealer so I can continue counting in peace.
Or sell your seat (quietly). I expect they'd pay handsomely. Then go play the dealer another day.

I've rarely had interaction with other AP's, much less conflicts. When I do happen to find myself with another AP, there's usually camaraderie and various team play angles. (At least for a little while, so as not to attract heat with too many coordinated bets.)

For counting games, aside from bringing heat, there's not much detriment in having other AP's around briefly, and there are generally plenty of games to go around. I don't understand why people would get so aggressive.
 
#9
johndoe said:
Or sell your seat (quietly). I expect they'd pay handsomely. Then go play the dealer another day.

I've rarely had interaction with other AP's, much less conflicts. When I do happen to find myself with another AP, there's usually camaraderie and various team play angles. (At least for a little while, so as not to attract heat with too many coordinated bets.)

For counting games, aside from bringing heat, there's not much detriment in having other AP's around briefly, and there are generally plenty of games to go around. I don't understand why people would get so aggressive.
In our part of the country where overcoming the tough games is the issue and heat is almost a non-issue, tremendous profits can be made with AP's working together at the same table. Just the speed advantage alone is worth it.
 

kewljason

Well-Known Member
#12
Solo player said:
Just spent 5 days on the strip. Saw 2 other counters during that time.
I encounter 2 or 3 almost every week. I sit down at a table to start a session several hundred times a week, so it's only natural that if they are out there, I'm going to run into them. Generally you don't know until the count starts to rise and you both begin raising. I won't give up that opportunity even though I probably was last one there, but I do exit immediately at the shuffle. The other counter probably thinks I am doing so as per unwritten counter etiquette, but is it actually my normal style. :)
 

Midwestern

Well-Known Member
#13
kewljason said:
I encounter 2 or 3 almost every week. I sit down at a table to start a session several hundred times a week, so it's only natural that if they are out there, I'm going to run into them. Generally you don't know until the count starts to rise and you both begin raising. I won't give up that opportunity even though I probably was last one there, but I do exit immediately at the shuffle. The other counter probably thinks I am doing so as per unwritten counter etiquette, but is it actually my normal style. :)
i actually think having more than 1 AP at a table can be quite advantageous in certain situations..

if you're the only one at a table systematically raising and lowering bets vs other guys that are flat betting, it makes you stand out.
but if there's another AP and you both raise and lower bets in unison, it kind of looks like the table is getting "hot" and winners are pushing their bets. the net efffect of this is much lower heat on either one of you. it happens in craps all the time and casinos love the action. little do they know that they're being taken advantage of by APs
 

Craps Master

Well-Known Member
#14
BJgenius007 said:
I hardly saw AP, let alone AP bullies. But I have seen a lot of ploppy bullies, they became mad if I don't play their way. One bully threatened to cut my hands if I hit 13, 14 again after TC stayed very negative for quite a period of time. I complained to pit boss and he told the ploppy that other players can play any way they want because it is their money to lose. The ploppy was not happy but he did not stop talking to me. He only told me the obvious BS like double my 9 against 5 or 6 etc, but did not say a word when I hit my 12 again.
Why are you even at this table? Who would want to sit through a "very negative" count and get berated by a psychopath?
 

apex

Well-Known Member
#15
I have only seen one other AP, that was in Vegas. He was HCing a great game (wasn't blackjack.) I sat next to him and tried to play, but the angle wasn't quite right. Decided to try to wait and get his seat while playing table min. I started bullying him in my mind, hoping he would go bust so I could have his seat. Then he lost all his chips and re-bought, so I felt bad for my mental bullying and started mentally cheering for him. It worked! He left at dealer change with a good stack. I wanted to follow him out and talk to him, but decided against it to respect his privacy. Learned a new "move" just by watching. Sadly didn't get in on any good action. Doubt he noticed me.
 

BJgenius007

Well-Known Member
#16
Craps Master said:
Why are you even at this table? Who would want to sit through a "very negative" count and get berated by a psychopath?
First, it only happened once in my lifetime. And I play it all for shoe game. That ploppy is not too bad a player. He almost did Basic Strategy right, if not perfect. I was bored. And I want to see him I made big money when TC reversed. Later when my chips piled up, I saw him whispering with his friends, discussing how I raised my bet 16X and won most of my hands. (Clearly he has absolutely no idea about counting.)
 
#17
If a holecarder wants your seat and you're just counting, the right thing to do is to sell your seat. You can tell him you're counting if the count's positive and sell it when the count goes down. Or if it's negative, sell it to him immediately. They have a 10% edge, so they'll be willing to pay you handsomely.

If you're at a table with another counter, don't wong in out of respect. Feel free to back-bet his hand.

If you're with a shuffle tracker (you'll notice they always ask for or even buy the cut card and intently observe the shuffle) leave, since they may cut the high count slug to the top, so you'll always have negative counts.
 

Lonesome Gambler

Well-Known Member
#18
I really have to wonder what kind of games you guy are trying to count where you have so many run-ins with HC players. Either there are some incredibly bad dealers in your region or you're (with some exceptions) playing some really marginal games.
 

RJT

Well-Known Member
#19
alwayssplitaces said:
If you're with a shuffle tracker (you'll notice they always ask for or even buy the cut card and intently observe the shuffle) leave, since they may cut the high count slug to the top, so you'll always have negative counts.
A few points;

a) if you think you're sitting next to a STer, you're almost certainly not

b) even if the person sitting at the table is trying to track (which is for the most part unlikely), the reality is they're almost certainly not good enough

c) if by some massive fluke you do end up sitting next to one of the bare handful of players out there good enough to track successfully and can somehow confirm this, walking away's the last thing you should do

RJT.
 

HockeXpert

Well-Known Member
#20
BOND said:
Have other APs experienced or seen similar run-ins with bully APs? Any ideas on how to handle bully APs?
Back to the original subject, I've never experienced bully AP's but an AP friend has and karma got that bully in the end.:laugh: I've had my share of encounters with AP's. They are everywhere, especially in LV.

Ask CP and maybe Sagefrog how to handle them. I recall that they have voiced their experiences on this before.
 
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