Do you appreciate Black Jack Apprenticeship?

kcchiefsfan1982

Well-Known Member
#1
The good...it is what turned me on to the game.

The really bad...

....it is attempting to create thousands of card counters!!!!!!! Too many could eventually cause rule changes to make things even worse for counters!

6 to 5 blackjack would wipe every counter out.

Continuous shuffler would be the nail in the coffin.
 
#2
Most people lack the discipline and even the ones that do, rarely have the bankroll or patience to build it. How many card counters have you spotted? For me it’s the amazing amount of 1 in 3 years I’ve done this. I’ve never noticed anybody raise their bets other than that time.

if anything, casinos are benefiting from half assed counters trying to be rich quick with Hail Mary bankrolls.
 

kcchiefsfan1982

Well-Known Member
#3
AngryCounter said:
Most people lack the discipline and even the ones that do, rarely have the bankroll or patience to build it. How many card counters have you spotted? For me it’s the amazing amount of 1 in 3 years I’ve done this. I’ve never noticed anybody raise their bets other than that time.

if anything, casinos are benefiting from half assed counters trying to be rich quick with Hail Mary bankrolls.
one recognized me at my local casino, and now we are friends.

I noticed another one but he was annoying me... instead of wonging out by leaving the table, he would just sit out hands but never get up...on the $5 table! He didn't last long though.
 

johndoe

Well-Known Member
#4
I think they really exaggerate the ability of players to win consistently or make a living out of playing. Given that their main business is ridiculously expensive seminars, it's understandable. But buyer beware. They love to hype their winners, but not their losers, who weren't so lucky.

I doubt many of their "graduates" become all that successful.
 

kcchiefsfan1982

Well-Known Member
#5
johndoe said:
I think they really exaggerate the ability of players to win consistently or make a living out of playing. Given that their main business is ridiculously expensive seminars, it's understandable. But buyer beware. They love to hype their winners, but not their losers, who weren't so lucky.

I doubt many of their "graduates" become all that successful.


Well, it is just a reality that most ppl who have family and a regular job can't put in the times it takes for the initial jump start.

The math is the math, so, everyone who puts in the time and actually does everything correctly should make the big money over a 2,000 to 4,000 hour period.
 

BoSox

Well-Known Member
#6
kcchiefsfan1982 said:
Well, it is just a reality that most ppl who have family and a regular job can't put in the times it takes for the initial jump start.

The math is the math, so, everyone who puts in the time and actually does everything correctly should make the big money over a 2,000 to 4,000 hour period.
Repeating:

"The math is the math, so, everyone who puts in the time and actually does everything correctly"

Sorry, that above statement is absolutely ridiculous!

continuing:

"should make the big money over a 2,000 to 4,000 hour period."

Really? Maybe on fantasy island, all of this happens.
 

kcchiefsfan1982

Well-Known Member
#7
BoSox said:
Repeating:

"The math is the math, so, everyone who puts in the time and actually does everything correctly"

Sorry, that above statement is absolutely ridiculous!

continuing:

"should make the big money over a 2,000 to 4,000 hour period."

Really? Maybe on fantasy island, all of this happens.
so the math isn't the math?

if you continue to raise your betting with your bank roll doubling.....u go from $10/hr to $16/hr....$32/hr....$50/hr.... and so on... while constantly lowering RoR.

Im not saying to double your betting... want to keep ror to 1% or less
 
#8
kcchiefsfan1982 said:
Well, it is just a reality that most ppl who have family and a regular job can't put in the times it takes for the initial jump start.
This... people think that counting cards 2 or 3 times at a casino for 2 hours is enough. I agree that being single without kids helped me reach the long run

kcchiefsfan1982 said:
The math is the math, so, everyone who puts in the time and actually does everything correctly should make the big money over a 2,000 to 4,000 hour period.
I kind of agree with @BoSox here, you are right but depends on ROR. At the suggested 1% ROR, there will be the one out of 100 counters where the math was right in the worst way. The risk is low but it exists. I agree the more videos I see from Colin, he doesn’t stress this statistical fact enough... positions winnings as a guarantee rather than a very good chance.
 

BoSox

Well-Known Member
#9
kcchiefsfan1982 said:
so the math isn't the math?
This is not about math. But about your statement saying everyone who puts in the time and does everything correctly. Even in a theory example, about everyone putting in 2000 to 4000 hrs and doing everything correctly there would still be players failing and falling off the bell curve.
 
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#10
BoSox said:
This is not about math. But about your statement saying everyone who puts in the time and does everything correctly. Even in a theory example, about everyone putting in 2000 to 4000 hrs and doing everything correctly there would still be players failing and falling off the bell curve.
so... like 1 out of 100 ppl with a 1% ror... yeah, i agree...
 

MJGolf

Well-Known Member
#11
BoSox said:
This is not about math. But about your statement saying everyone who puts in the time and does everything correctly. Even in a theory example, about everyone putting in 2000 to 4000 hrs and doing everything correctly there would still be players failing and falling off the bell curve.
While I tend to agree with your observation about statistics and people, don't you really think that the VAST majority of people do NOT put in the hours and training necessary to play the game well enough to win in the long run? It's boring, laborious and not a lot of fun......so to speak. The return is winning the money. And spending that many hours in a casino environment.......................can't say it's that exciting any longer. I mean the flashing lights, excitement, etc wear off after a time. I guess what I'm trying to say is most people will NOT become efficient card counters and to many, many folks, they will just resort back to the gambling that they enjoyed in the first place.
 

BoSox

Well-Known Member
#13
kcchiefsfan1982 said:
if you continue to raise your betting with your bank roll doubling.....u go from $10/hr to $16/hr....$32/hr....$50/hr.... and so on... while constantly lowering RoR.

Im not saying to double your betting... want to keep ror to 1% or less
Doubling bankrolls and keeping ROR low is very important for most newer players who often start out playing with smaller banks but that is only one aspect of many many variables yet to face when moving up in stakes.

When a player often starts out playing for the first time at small bets they may be looked upon by management as like a nat, or a harmless parasite, a tolerable no threat, INITIALLY. The new player may think that they can get away with almost anything and forms a false perception for themselves for later on down the road. Over time the player hopefully builds up their playing bank, and their skills and is ready to test the waters at a little higher base unit, just about the same time that the casinos are starting to look at you as a more than a small pain in the ass. You are not starting a new endeavor with the same casinos that you been playing at, there was a price you paid for the small wins and the hands-on education that you received, which is a history. Isn't there always a price? Consequently, this new stage in the player's career may have to be done in completely new casinos. The player will then find out that he/she will need a whole new set of skills that will be needed for continued play.
 
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#14
I`m biased as I build my career through BJA.
possibly more counters arising from that, although bad counters make the casino money,
so maybe it levels out.
Nobody knows. maybe but by bit the games get worse anyway, so we take what we can now until
the party is over and move on
 

MJGolf

Well-Known Member
#15
Dagobert Duck said:
Nobody knows. maybe but by bit the games get worse anyway, so we take what we can now until
the party is over and move on
I agree with this sentiment. The game conditions have gotten worse for sure...............and it doesn't always seem bit by bit. Affects us in this part of the country though you really won't find 6-5 BJ in any sizeable way at least. Vegas is HORRIBLE for a red chipper.
 
#16
I am sorry to hear that. i think being a red chipper is tough in so many ways.
although being a blackjack player in vegas is probably a tough choice anyway
 

KewlJ

Well-Known Member
#18
So how many professional or top notch card counters has BJA turned out or think they have turned out? I am guessing very few. And how does BJA go about finding "recruits"? Do they advertise somewhere?

At times I too have thought that BJA (and others) were creating new card counters and that couldn't be a good thing for those of us that already do so seriously or professionally. But lately I come to think about it a little differently.

There aren't many people that pursue card counting today and stay with it for very long at a serious level. And the reason is if money is the driving force, then card counting isn't the answer. You can make more money doing other things in the advantage play arena. So to remain a card counter for any length of time, and there aren't many of us that do, it usually is about more than just money. To stick with card counting a player almost has to be obsessed with blackjack and winning by card counting and the small edge you get IF you do everything right. A player has to want to win that way. Because again, if it is just about winning and money, there are other more profitable, less variance avenues.

So I think the few players that have that special passion, would find what they need to know and learn one way or another, especially in this era of internet.

I think what occurs with BJA, is they find people, instead of people that have a passion for card counting finding them. And the people they find or recruit, are probably driven by money alone, because they don't have that passion. So when these players figure out how little advantage a good card counter plays to, and the variance involved to get that small edge, they move on to something else, either in or outside the arena of advantage play. And then a whole new crop or class will replace them. And 99%, maybe 99.9% of each of these classes will move on to something else in fairly short order. That small remainder with that special passion, they would have found what they needed to know somewhere else because they have that drive and passion.

So my short answer is I don't think BJA is having much effect.
 
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#19
KewlJ said:
So how many professional or top notch card counters has BJA turned out or think they have turned out? I am guessing very few. And how does BJA go about finding "recruits"? Do they advertise somewhere?

At times I too have thought that BJA (and others) were creating new card counters and that couldn't be a good thing for those of us that already do so seriously or professionally. But lately I come to think about it a little differently.

There aren't many people that pursue card counting today and stay with it for very long at a serious level. And the reason is if money is the driving force, then card counting isn't the answer. You can make more money doing other things in the advantage play arena. So to remain a card counter for any length of time, and there aren't many of us that do, it usually is about more than just money. To stick with card counting a player almost has to be obsessed with blackjack and winning by card counting and the small edge you get IF you do everything right. A player has to want to win that way. Because again, if it is just about winning and money, there are other more profitable, less variance avenues.

So I think the few players that have that special passion, would find what they need to know and learn one way or another, especially in this era of internet.

I think what occurs with BJA, is they find people, instead of people that have a passion for card counting finding them. And the people they find or recruit, are probably driven by money alone, because they don't have that passion. So when these players figure out how little advantage a good card counter plays to, and the variance involved to get that small edge, they move on to something else, either in or outside the arena of advantage play. And then a whole new crop or class will replace them. And 99%, maybe 99.9% of each of these classes will move on to something else in fairly short order. That small remainder with that special passion, they would have found what they needed to know somewhere else because they have that drive and passion.

So my short answer is I don't think BJA is having much effect.
I agree. Very few ppl can go the long hall.
 
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