does heat matter?

[muppet]

But then again, one of MY mottos is: When in doubt, back off. Once you're 86'd, you're done.
Good Luck!

so i had a chat with maz yesterday about heat and he basically said not to worry about it..he still plays at places that have 86'd him.

so i guess my question is..does heat really matter?

specifically i am referring to my situation: there is no blackjack near me. i have to fly somewhere to play. so i intend on taking trips to vegas about once a month or so. should i really worry that i was backed off last trip? if i get backed off again next trip, there are still many other shops in vegas to visit

if you get 86'd, what's to stop you from coming back to the same place a few days later (on a different shift) and playing for an hour? even someone recognizes you, what's the worst that could happen? they just walk you out again? that's not so bad really. are there worser consequences to being had?

seems like the better decision (i.e., better EV ) is to not worry about heat and just play. what do you guys think?

(sorry sucker i kind of took your quote out of context, since you said that in reply to local casino longevity)

 

[Lonesome Gambler]

If you've been backed off, you can come back on a different shift, although you probably want to wait a few months in case your picture is posted in the pit or if the bosses have talked about you. In a place like Vegas, just take that joint out of your rotation for a few months. Easy.

If you've been 86'd, that means you've been read the trespass act, and if you return, you could be arrested for trespassing. There is quite a distinction here. Of course, many players continue to play at places that they've previously been officially barred from, but they're usually playing under a different identity, if I understand correctly.

Backoffs are undesirable, but they're not that disastrous. Being 86'd is something you definitely want to avoid, if possible.

 

[21forme]

As LG explained there's a difference between a back-off and being 86'd or trespassed. Returning after a back-off is no big deal. All they can do is show you the door again and possibly trespass you, if they remember you. Returning after a trespass can lead to arrest and prosecution.

I go to LV every few months. Last 2 trips I've had one back-off each trip. So what? I play anon so they don't have my name. Generally, I will avoid the same shift in the place I was backed-off next trip, then it's biz as usual after that.

The old saying is if you're not backed off on occasion, you're not playing aggressively enough and leaving money on the table.

 

[muppet]

really though? have any of you been arrested/prosecuted due to a previous 86?

 

[Sucker]

No, but I DO know a couple of people that HAVE. Harrah's is said to be famous for it.

 

[MAZ]

Speaking specifically of Vegas, and especially the major strip stores, don't worry about anything. Getting backed off happens to everybody. Getting 86d very, very, rarely will happen to an occasional player in Vegas. Its just not that big of a deal. Getting 86d only happens with badass, dangerous, suspected team players, playing noticeable bucks. Like me. And since you aren't me, don't worry about a back off in Vegas. I wouldn't worry about a backoff anywhere, but since you mentioned Vegas, thats what I'm talking about. You could play 12 hours straight in different stores 5 minutes after a back off with no problem in Sin City dude. Depending on where and how you handle the back off you might even be able to play the same place on a different shift the next day. If you change your game due to fear of past events and what might happen in the future, your game suffers and you just might as well pack it in. Fear nothing. Play smart, and don't give in to the myths of boogeymen casinos. Part time players usually get caught up in the whole cat and mouse thing, when really its just a mouse and cheese thing for them. If you let casino paranoia bother you then guess what cheddar, you the cheese. If you just go in there and play your mother f'n game the right way, you the mouse. You won't always get the cheese, but it ain't gonna hurt either.

 

[Josh Axelrad]

172s etc

really though? have any of you been arrested/prosecuted due to a previous 86?

muppet, to your general question concerning heat and it mattering there are multiple valid answers. some smart, successful players prefer avoiding heat as much as possible. my personal view is that maximizing EV in the short to medium run is what matters most of all, and that any card counter with a strategic horizon further than a few months to, at most, a year away is thinking more abstractly than is useful. on the other hand i also enjoy heat, because i'm a headbanger, and currently i'm broke, out of action, and ballistically hot. so you should measure my viewpoint accordingly.

concerning prior 86s. there is no known right answer to this. i can tell you from experience that i've played with a pretty broad range of hot characters who routinely returned to casinos from which we may have been previously 86d (we may also have had the habit of avoiding listening to long sentences spoken by rude angry men, so that, as a legal matter, if in fact we had been 86'd anywhere we weren't necessarily aware of it - we were men without pasts, if you like) and that there was no significant legal blowback at all. it just never happened. all they'd do is read the statement again, escort us off, and off we'd go, and back we'd come.

arguably there's legal precedent in nevada for believing you cannot be arrested for trespassing in casinos from which you are formally barred. before detaining you, the casino (it is believed) must inform you (who are a man without a past) of your 86'd status and give you the opportunity to exit, which you should then take. check out the wilkinson case and remember that i'm no attorney.

 

[FLASH1296]

Thanx for joining us, Josh.

I just finished reading your book, “Repeat until Rich”

I have been “trespassed” three (3) times and it is not pleasant; especially if it happens on Sovereign Native American land as my last one was, where you may be physically detained, subtly threatened, and harassed for hours, as I was.

 

[muppet]

thanks for all the responses so far.

what about reno?

sucker- care to elaborate on what state this was in and what the consequences were?

 

[21forme]

Speaking specifically of Vegas, and especially the major strip stores, don't worry about anything. Getting backed off happens to everybody. Getting 86d very, very, rarely will happen to an occasional player in Vegas. Its just not that big of a deal. Getting 86d only happens with badass, dangerous, suspected team players, playing noticeable bucks. Like me. And since you aren't me, don't worry about a back off in Vegas. I wouldn't worry about a backoff anywhere, but since you mentioned Vegas, thats what I'm talking about. You could play 12 hours straight in different stores 5 minutes after a back off with no problem in Sin City dude. Depending on where and how you handle the back off you might even be able to play the same place on a different shift the next day. If you change your game due to fear of past events and what might happen in the future, your game suffers and you just might as well pack it in. Fear nothing. Play smart, and don't give in to the myths of boogeymen casinos. Part time players usually get caught up in the whole cat and mouse thing, when really its just a mouse and cheese thing for them. If you let casino paranoia bother you then guess what cheddar, you the cheese. If you just go in there and play your mother f'n game the right way, you the mouse. You won't always get the cheese, but it ain't gonna hurt either.

Congrats Maz. Out of your 299 posts, I believe this is the first one that you've given some useful, constructive information, rather than being insulting and derogatory.

 

[fubster]

The old saying is if you're not backed off on occasion, you're not playing aggressively enough and leaving money on the table.

kinda like this logic, i'll think more about it and maybe post something about it if i remember

keep in mind, i really only play poker (as of right now) so my post will probably be inaccurate

 

[fubster]

muppet, to your general question concerning heat and it mattering there are multiple valid answers. some smart, successful players prefer avoiding heat as much as possible. my personal view is that maximizing EV in the short to medium run is what matters most of all, and that any card counter with a strategic horizon further than a few months to, at most, a year away is thinking more abstractly than is useful. on the other hand i also enjoy heat, because i'm a headbanger, and currently i'm broke, out of action, and ballistically hot. so you should measure my viewpoint accordingly.

concerning prior 86s. there is no known right answer to this. i can tell you from experience that i've played with a pretty broad range of hot characters who routinely returned to casinos from which we may have been previously 86d (we may also have had the habit of avoiding listening to long sentences spoken by rude angry men, so that, as a legal matter, if in fact we had been 86'd anywhere we weren't necessarily aware of it - we were men without pasts, if you like) and that there was no significant legal blowback at all. it just never happened. all they'd do is read the statement again, escort us off, and off we'd go, and back we'd come.

arguably there's legal precedent in nevada for believing you cannot be arrested for trespassing in casinos from which you are formally barred. before detaining you, the casino (it is believed) must inform you (who are a man without a past) of your 86'd status and give you the opportunity to exit, which you should then take. check out the wilkinson case and remember that i'm no attorney.

extremely interesting post, ty

 

[UK-21]

In the UK . . . .

In the UK we don't have "back offs" and "86s" - the route is to suspend or cancel the individual's membership.

I'm not aware of any case where individuals have been asked to leave the table for being suspected of card counting - what usually happens is the next time you arrive and show your membership card you're informed your membership has been suspended and are politely refused entry.

If your membership is suspended,for any reason, it's a big problem if you want to continue to play. Most casinos in the UK are run by just a few organisations, and being refused entry at one outlet usually means you'll be toast at all of those they operate. You can of course, go down the route of using somebody else's membership card to get past the reception, but in the UK at present, doing anything under a false name can have serious repercussions - especially if you're from an ethnic minority group.

 

[RJT]

Congrats Maz. Out of your 299 posts, I believe this is the first one that you've given some useful, constructive information, rather than being insulting and derogatory.

That's simply because you're not observant enough to find value in anything you decide is offensive - just because someone isn't polite in the way they offer information, doesn't mean it's not "useful" or "constructive". And the same can go the other way - while a little condesending i though your last post was polite enough, but wasn't in any way "useful" or "constructive" - instead it was aimed as an attack to derail a thread.
And just as an interesting side point 21forme - you seem to like to get in on other people's threads to post random attacks. Last time i read one of your posts you were berating me for spelling when you'd had nothing to do with the conversation previous, now you’re jumping in on this thread to pick a fight with someone who's given some very sound advice.
How about next time you waste space on the board putting up something constructive rather than lashing out at people who have encroached on your delicate sensibilities’?

RJT.

 

[creeping panther]

Josh

muppet, to your general question concerning heat and it mattering there are multiple valid answers. some smart, successful players prefer avoiding heat as much as possible. my personal view is that maximizing EV in the short to medium run is what matters most of all, and that any card counter with a strategic horizon further than a few months to, at most, a year away is thinking more abstractly than is useful. on the other hand i also enjoy heat, because i'm a headbanger, and currently i'm broke, out of action, and ballistically hot. so you should measure my viewpoint accordingly.

concerning prior 86s. there is no known right answer to this. i can tell you from experience that i've played with a pretty broad range of hot characters who routinely returned to casinos from which we may have been previously 86d (we may also have had the habit of avoiding listening to long sentences spoken by rude angry men, so that, as a legal matter, if in fact we had been 86'd anywhere we weren't necessarily aware of it - we were men without pasts, if you like) and that there was no significant legal blowback at all. it just never happened. all they'd do is read the statement again, escort us off, and off we'd go, and back we'd come.

arguably there's legal precedent in nevada for believing you cannot be arrested for trespassing in casinos from which you are formally barred. before detaining you, the casino (it is believed) must inform you (who are a man without a past) of your 86'd status and give you the opportunity to exit, which you should then take. check out the wilkinson case and remember that i'm no attorney.

Josh,

I believe you are the author of the new BJ book, "Keep Trying Until Rich"?

Nice post and nice to have you participating here.

CP

 

[Blue Efficacy]

Congrats Maz. Out of your 299 posts, I believe this is the first one that you've given some useful, constructive information, rather than being insulting and derogatory.

He did, however, manage to say, condescendingly, that simply by virtue of not "being him" you could never be enough of a threat to get 86'd at a casino.

 

[RJT]

He did, however, manage to say, condescendingly, that simply by virtue of not "being him" you could never be enough of a threat to get 86'd at a casino.

Lol - now there's searching to find a reason to get offended.
Frankly there are very few posters here that have posed any significant threat to any casino and Maz is one of the few who has - and still does. In his case heat does matter, it stops a player like him from extracting the money from a weak game - a game that is likely to have taken a while to find. For most counters, it simply means they have to go and play next door, and on the next trip to Vegas try again. If you are a serious player taking serious money, heat does make a difference. If you are a part time hobbiest, it probably doesn't and worrying about it is going to cost you money.

RJT.

 

[creeping panther]

21

Congrats Maz. Out of your 299 posts, I believe this is the first one that you've given some useful, constructive information, rather than being insulting and derogatory.

I must concur with what RJT posted about your comments on Maz.

Maz has a style that not all can appreciate but many here can understand. I believe he has given very useful information, in a very entertaining way, and often does so in chats which, I would not miss for any reason, if he is involved, same for Bojack.

This site is very lucky to have the likes of Maz and Bojack posting, they are true "franchise posters" to this site, and among the top 5 players today, or ever.

CP

 

[Deathclutch]

arguably there's legal precedent in nevada for believing you cannot be arrested for trespassing in casinos from which you are formally barred. before detaining you, the casino (it is believed) must inform you (who are a man without a past) of your 86'd status and give you the opportunity to exit, which you should then take. check out the wilkinson case and remember that i'm no attorney.

Has this been your experience with it though? Are casinos following this?

Congrats Maz. Out of your 299 posts, I believe this is the first one that you've given some useful, constructive information, rather than being insulting and derogatory.

Pointless.

 

[Sucker]

sucker- care to elaborate on what state this was in and what the consequences were?

Both instances that I know about were at Harrahs' in Lake Tahoe. The first one was a friend who'd been trespassed there several times before. Harrahs' got tired of this and had him arrested & charged with trespassing. I was involved in the play at the second one, but I got out before they got ME. As for THIS incident, my BP had previously been trespassed there only once, five years earlier.
BOTH times however; the charges were dropped,with no court appearances necessary.

I must also note that both times involved players who were flat betting the table limit AND keeping the security guards busy bringing table fills. I absolutely concur with Mazs' statement that they mostly reserve the really drastic treatment for the "badasses" and the "very dangerous" players.