Expected loss of surrendering with two 8s versus a dealer 10 or ace?

[dmander292]

I know you're supposed to split with two 8s versus a dealer 10 or ace but I'm curious what the expected loss is for surrendering with two 8s versus a dealer 10 or ace. Can anyone tell me what that expected loss is?

 

[Gamblor]

This is as easy as it gets. Your expected EV is -0.5

I do know that surrender 8,8 vs 10 is extremely close to 0, I believe its +1.

 

[Gamblor]

Also although you should definitely consider surrendering 8,8 v 10, you should probably never consider surrendering 8,8 v A.

18 is not the worst card to have against a dealers A (when you know they don't have a 10 as a hole card). I would be much prefer having 8,8 vs dealer A than 9.

 

[dmander292]

What do you mean by +1?

 

[Southpaw]

I know you're supposed to split with two 8s versus a dealer 10 or ace but I'm curious what the expected loss is for surrendering with two 8s versus a dealer 10 or ace. Can anyone tell me what that expected loss is?

If you play RA indices, which yield a better SCORE than EV-maximizing ones, you will almost always be surrendering your 8s vs. paint and aces. (H17). Not sure how much this would change for S17.

Spaw

 

[Gamblor]

If you play RA indices, which yield a better SCORE than EV-maximizing ones, you will almost always be surrendering your 8s vs. paint and aces. (H17). Not sure how much this would change for S17.

Spaw

Yes thanks Southpaw, for H17, 8,8 is much weaker against A. For S17 is considerably stronger.

OP what I meant by +1, is that a TC of +1, you should surrender 8,8 v 10.

 

[dmander292]

OK, thanks very much, both of you, for that information. One more question for you. It seems to me that surrendering in these situations would provide me with less variance, correct? If so, and, If I'm the type of person that is looking to minimize losses more so than maximize gains, does it make sense for me to minimize variance by surrendering my 8s against the ten and ace (h17)?

If this is a somewhat illogical question, I apologize. I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to the math of blackjack. I know the basic strategy by heart and I've recently taught myself how to count but that is the extend of my blackjack knowledge.

Thanks!

 

[Gamblor]

For 8,8 v 10 I would definitely say yes, surrender if your looking to minimize variance. As mentioned its already close to a coin flip for a non-counter (TC +1).

Personally I would never surrender 8,8 v A even in H17. Not that familiar with RA indices, so others might be able to provide more detail. The book I have for hi-lo does not even list an indice for v A (assuming S17), which means its not ever worth considering no matter the count. Not sure if it would be different for H17.

Again, as I mentioned, when you think about, have an 8 when the dealer has an A and you know he doesn't have a 10 (after dealer peak) is not a bad situation as at all.

Sometimes I'm risk averse myself, I have been known to outright stand on 8,8 v dealer 10 with a big bet out (if surrender is not available).

 

[psyduck]

Here are the HiLo indices I use for my 6-deck H17 shoe game (my own simulation):

88 vs 10: surrender if TC >= 2, otherwise split.
88 vs A: surrender if TC < 2, otherwise split.

 

[21forme]

Here are the HiLo indices I use for my 6-deck H17 shoe game (my own simulation):

88 vs 10: surrender if TC >= 2, otherwise split.
88 vs A: surrender if TC < 2, otherwise split.

Wong says surr at TC<4 for 88 v A

 

[sagefr0g]

I know you're supposed to split with two 8s versus a dealer 10 or ace but I'm curious what the expected loss is for surrendering with two 8s versus a dealer 10 or ace. Can anyone tell me what that expected loss is?

basic strategy for a h17daslsr six deck game is actually to surrender you pair of eights against a dealer ace up card.....
anyway for a h17daslsr six deck game...
from kc's tdca, see images below for ev's of various options:

 

[sagefr0g]

I know you're supposed to split with two 8s versus a dealer 10 or ace but I'm curious what the expected loss is for surrendering with two 8s versus a dealer 10 or ace. Can anyone tell me what that expected loss is?

erhh maybe you are more interested in a s17daslsr six deck game....

 

[psyduck]

Wong says surr at TC<4 for 88 v A

Not sure why. Here are my results for 88 vs A calling for surrender at TC < 2:

TC        surrender         play       
4          -0.500           -0.450
3          -0.500           -0.469
2          -0.500           -0.487
1          -0.500           -0.5004
0          -0.500           -0.515

 

[Gamblor]

For those who mention that you should surrender at < 2, 4, etc., that can't be correct? This would imply that you surrender 8,8 vs A at TC=0, which would imply BS is wrong (always split 8's).

 

[Gamblor]

For those who mention that you should surrender at < 2, 4, etc., that can't be correct? This would imply that you surrender 8,8 vs A at TC=0, which would imply BS is wrong (always split 8's).

Actually nevermind You guys are talking about H17 LS, which is a paradox and non-existent entity where I play