First time in Live Poker

gibsonlp33stl

Well-Known Member
#1
Hey -

I used to play a ton of online poker during college years (3 years ago)...i gave it up when I got a real job (not enough time and the new legislation scared away all the fish). I was pretty profitable and enjoyed it. I watch High Stakes Poker last night and it really got me in the mood to play some poker. So i'm planning on going up to the local casino to play some $1-2 NL. Anything I should know about the live game before goign? Etiquette? Change in strategy? Any advice or thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks!
 

Canceler

Well-Known Member
#2
One thing to think about...

Online your hole cards and the size of the pot are always right there in front of you. This is not the case with the live game.
 

mjbballar23

Well-Known Member
#3
re

dont try to outplay/bluff live players....all they no how to do is call so just wait til you have a good hand and punish them. Really a pretty simple game if your patient.
 

callipygian

Well-Known Member
#4
gibsonlp33stl said:
Anything I should know about the live game before goign? Etiquette?
Should know:

Well, first of all, be prepared for a huge slowdown in the hands per hour you'll see. Online, you can get maybe 100 hands/hr per table and play 5 tables at once (500 hands/hr). Live, you'll be lucky to get 30 hands/hr for NL (40 hands/hr for LHE). If you're prone to boredom, you'll find yourself playing far too many hands just because you hate sitting around.

The rake, also, will seem absurdly high. Standard rake is 10% capped at $4, which means for 1/2 or 1/3 NL you're often playing with a 10% rake. Don't despair, though, because players are so bad live, your BB/100 will be incredible. The $/hr you make will more or less even out.

Obviously, that you can see your opponents is a huge advantage, and that they can see you is a huge disadvantage. Practice cold, methodological play: look at your hole cards, count to X, put them down, then act. Memorize your cards well - looking at them again when the flop comes out is a huge tell.

You'll need more unambiguity in your signals. If you're checking, I recommend both patting the felt and verbally declaring "check." It's not easy to see everyone at the table and it's also not easy to hear everyone at the table. Watch out for string bets, and push your chips into the betting circle in one motion. Declare "raise $X", or "raise to $X" verbally so there's no confusion - alternatively, just declare "raise" and let the dealer announce how much it is.

Protect your cards. If you're in a hand, put a chip on top of your cards. This will prevent the dealer from accidentally scooping it up. Also, even if criticized for doing so, hang on to your winning hand until pushed the pot. Mucked winning hands cannot be retrieved.

If you get mad, take a break. If you want to make a case, make it calmly and politely to the dealer, or ask the floor to come over. The floor's decision is generally final. I strongly suggest never commenting on anyone's play, no matter how much of a retard they are. If anything, you want to encourage bad play, not correct it.

Etiquette:

- When betting or raising, stack your chips such that the amount is obvious: $1's, $5's and $100's should be stacked in groups of 5 or 10, $25's in groups of 4.
- Call time if you need some time to think.
- Call clock if you think someone's taking too long to think. Calling clock on someone is a semi-hostile act, so use it sparingly.
- While it is required for the last person who took offensive action (bet/raise) to show cards at showdown, it is polite for anyone who believes they have the winning hand to immediately turn their cards over. Failure to do so is called "slowrolling" and is impolite (and warnable in some rooms).
- Profanity is prohibited, and warnable.
- Stack your chips in an organized manner, especially when you have a large mountain of them. ;) Stacks of 20-30 are generally standard, and most places will force you to have all your chips visible (i.e. no hiding high-denomination chips behind a wall of $1's).
- Tip the dealer when you win a pot, unless you're just stealing the blinds or it's an otherwise very small pot. $1 per pot is standard for average pots, $2 per pot is standard for large pots.
- Tip the waitstaff if they bring you food or drinks, even if the food and drinks are complimentary. $1 per drink is standard, and I've never eaten at the table.

Procedural:

- When you arrive, you'll need to sign up with the brush, and potentially wait for a seat if one isn't available.
- Tables are referred to by number, which are generally printed on a placard somewhere close to the dealer.
- Seats are referred to by number, with seat 1 being on the dealer's left, going around to seat 10 on the dealer's right.
- Some places make you buy chips before sitting down, others will send a chip runner out to you. If you're waiting for chips you can generally post a blind and play, and the dealer will keep track of how much you owe.
 

Canceler

Well-Known Member
#5
A couple etiquette items that should be obvious (but I’ll say them anyway):

Do not discuss or comment on any hand still in progress, even if you’ve already folded.

Criticizing someone else’s play is both rude AND stupid.
 

gibsonlp33stl

Well-Known Member
#6
Thanks

Thanks for the advicee Callipygian and rest...good thoughts there. I did notice a lot, a lot, a lot of calling as opposed to raising. Online play seems to get down to 2-3 players in everyhand. Often times live we had 5x BB pf bet and there would be 7 players seeing the flop. Makes it harder to win more hands, but the hands where you're strong are quite a bit more profitable. Yea - the boredom got to me and I ended up calling some pf hands that I should not have...usually suited connectors in bad position that got raised after I called. But I did enjoy it...online poker has become much tighter and less profitable (not to mention harder to get money in and out) with the terrible legislation. The real deal should be able to get me through.
 

ccibball50

Well-Known Member
#7
The biggest differece between live and online poker I have seen the the amount of callers. Bluffs need to be much more strategic and I would recomend play a little tighter at least for the first few times until you get a feel for the type players you play. HOwever I know that playing styles vary significantly in different geographical locations. Where I live, I just sit and rake in every time when I have a good hand. This may not be exactly the way it is in nothern states though.
 

ccibball50

Well-Known Member
#10
gibsonlp33stl said:
Is there ever any kind of comps playing poker? Just curious what I could expect to get, or is anything you get a bonus?
normally there are not a lot of comps for playing poker. You can get a free meal, and poker rate rooms, maybe a pack of smokes, but that is about it.
 

gibsonlp33stl

Well-Known Member
#11
OK - I may be officially done with BJ. Apparently my many hours of online poker through college paid off. First 3 hours session at 1-3NL I lost $65, 2nd 4 hours session I won $608, 3rd 3 hr session I won $550. Total profit of $1093, or $109 per hour. I know I'm high on variance, but people play pretty dang loose at the poker tables. I think much easier to take money from them than the casino. BJ is awesome, but much more difficult I believe to make good money from. Plus, bankroll requirements for blackjack are very high if you want to make substantial money. I'd rather play against the drunk guy than the casino itself. But maybe I just got a lucky streak of cards at poker...
 

mjbballar23

Well-Known Member
#12
gibsonlp33stl said:
Plus, bankroll requirements for blackjack are very high if you want to make substantial money. I'd rather play against the drunk guy than the casino itself. But maybe I just got a lucky streak of cards at poker...

Your definitely running hot but there is definitely less to worry about while playing live poker as compared to BJ. Smaller bankroll requirements for certain.
 

gibsonlp33stl

Well-Known Member
#13
Yea - it's always good to start off on a hot streak...helps the bankroll. If I could keep up with $20 per hour with a BR less than 5k...definitely beats the hell out of what I could make with that BR in BJ.
 

UK-21

Well-Known Member
#14
gibsonlp33stl said:
OK - I may be officially done with BJ. Apparently my many hours of online poker through college paid off. First 3 hours session at 1-3NL I lost $65, 2nd 4 hours session I won $608, 3rd 3 hr session I won $550. Total profit of $1093, or $109 per hour . . . But maybe I just got a lucky streak of cards at poker...
Luck? There's a profound concept.

I haven't been playing poker for long and am learning online for tiny stakes. My experience so far is that, despite the general assertion that poker is largely a game of probability, maths and skill, "luck" is a much greater component of the game than I had previously thought. No matter how tight I play, and how conservatively I bet through, the regularity of being cleaned out by someone pulling an 8-1 white rabbit out of a hat is becoming tiresome. What is the probability of a single player winning three successive hands where their winning hand is made on the River on a c8-1 chance? 8 x 8 x 8 (=512)? And two of these were a full house made on the River to beat a full house made on the flop and two pairs of pictures made on the flop.

I'm sure the mathematical explanation is that this is the StdDev of the game -it's just painfull to find yourself on the far side of the bell curve so early on when learning to play.

Perhaps I'm just a sore loser? Perhaps things'll get better? I'm not betting on it though . . . . :(
 

gibsonlp33stl

Well-Known Member
#15
I'm on fire...just won another $508 last night in a 3 hour session.

For online low stakes - you will get a lot of callers...are you playing limit or no limit? Especially limit low stakes, tons of callers. Also, if you just started playing you may be making other mistakes. If they are on a flush draw or something and you don't make them pay enough to see the turn and river, or if you bet, but not enough so they have pot odds to call. Obviously poker is still involves a lot of luck - if it didn't it wouldn't be called gambling and no one but the best would ever win. And if the fish didn't win every now and then, it would be terrible for the game. Poker is definitely a game of skill, but if it wasn't for the luck aspect then the fish wouldn't have a chance (and therefore would never play and would never end up eventually giving all their money away).
 

callipygian

Well-Known Member
#17
I don't know about NL, but LHE has roughly an EV of +0.05 with a SD of 2-2.5 units. That's the big advantage IMO over blackjack, a lower bankroll/n0.

The nice thing about blackjack is that you're winning money from the house, which at least for me, is more satisfying than winning money from stupid people. I sometimes feel a twinge of guilt when I see the 2-3 quasi-competent players basically take turns raping the kid who's probably gambling with his daddy's money.
 

gibsonlp33stl

Well-Known Member
#18
callipygian said:
I don't know about NL, but LHE has roughly an EV of +0.05 with a SD of 2-2.5 units. That's the big advantage IMO over blackjack, a lower bankroll/n0.

The nice thing about blackjack is that you're winning money from the house, which at least for me, is more satisfying than winning money from stupid people. I sometimes feel a twinge of guilt when I see the 2-3 quasi-competent players basically take turns raping the kid who's probably gambling with his daddy's money.
First off...I'm curious how you calculate an EV and SD for poker when you don't know who you're playing against. It's still gambling, but a lot of skill is involved. If you are at a table with a bunch of pros v. a bunch of tourists in vegas...your EV would change dramatically. I don't even know how you would guess at an EV without just playing a lot of hours and seeing what it is.

Secondly, I don't feel bad taking money from people who play poker...they know why they're there. They'll take my money if I make a bad call or get rivered...so I don't mind taking their money (especially a kid with lots of money, if it's someone who looks like they are down to their last dollar, than I feel a little bad.). Plus, if they are really bad players and want to play poker...someone is going to take it..why not me?
 

gibsonlp33stl

Well-Known Member
#19
But I do agree that smaller bankroll required for poker - big plus. However, there is skill...so I don't care if your bankroll was 1 million...if you suck at poker you could lose it all.

Another big plus is you don't have to worry about getting 86ed...the casino could care less how much money you make so you don't have to make cover moves and give up some EV to not get caught.
 

callipygian

Well-Known Member
#20
gibsonlp33stl said:
I'm curious how you calculate an EV and SD for poker when you don't know who you're playing against.
I play LLHE, which is full of loose-passives who often play the same way. The EV is a mix of historical data from my play as well as trying to model their behavior in sims. SD is somewhat of a guess, but comes from sims as well as reports from other people who have kept longer records than I have.

gibsonlp33stl said:
If you are at a table with a bunch of pros v. a bunch of tourists in vegas...your EV would change dramatically.
I don't play with pros. Period. If after a few hands I don't smell blood, I move tables. I'm not good enough to hold my own against good players; I can tolerate 1-2 other good players so long as the others are sufficiently bad.

Hopefully I'll get better some day and move on to playing with competent opposition.

gibsonlp33stl said:
if they are really bad players and want to play poker...someone is going to take it..why not me?
lol
 
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