For your discussion.
- Thread starter KewlJ
- Start date
It should be of no surprise that a home-built sorting machine can sort in whatever order it's programmed to. Or that a commercial machine can do similarly. Don't they have an option for putting all the cards in order anyway, to make it easier to verify that they are all present when the deck is retired?
But it's quite another thing to state (or imply) that shuffling machines in casinos manipulate the card order intentionally for the benefit of the casino.
But it's quite another thing to state (or imply) that shuffling machines in casinos manipulate the card order intentionally for the benefit of the casino.
So this is my take: the more something like this becomes publicized, the more the public should become reticent to ever play against a machine. I actually think this is a good thing. Articles should be written about it. The general playing public should come to realize that it could be cheated by such a machine, even though casinos would obviously risk losing their licenses if the machine were confiscated.
No one has ever questioned the notion that a machine could be built to cheat the players. Rather, they question whether a casino would be willing to risk using one.
Don
No one has ever questioned the notion that a machine could be built to cheat the players. Rather, they question whether a casino would be willing to risk using one.
Don
KewlJ
Well-Known Member
A casino would not lose their license if a machine were confiscated. The machines were approved by gaming commissions for use. Maybe gaming was aware of the capability (sometimes with a minor adjustment), or maybe gaming wasn't aware of tat feature or capability. So if and when someone brings a case and it comes to (public) light, gaming will just say you can no longer use the machines, similar to mindplay. At worse, they give a casino that was using the non-random shuffle feature a slap on the wrist type fine.DSchles said:
I don't agree with you, but that's OK. All it would take would be one highly visible prominent class-action suit alleging massive fraud, and involving thousands of patrons claiming to have been cheated over a period of time, to destroy the public's confidence in a particular casino (conglomerate?) forever. You're not a businessman. You don't understand the damage that such a conviction could bring to a firm.
And, if the gaming commission were complicit in the fraud, because it knew of what was going on, then you risk federal charges for conspiracy to commit fraud. If YOU were a casino owner, would you take the risk? With what's going on in the world these days, do you really think it's easy to get away with anything??
Don
And, if the gaming commission were complicit in the fraud, because it knew of what was going on, then you risk federal charges for conspiracy to commit fraud. If YOU were a casino owner, would you take the risk? With what's going on in the world these days, do you really think it's easy to get away with anything??
Don
KewlJ
Well-Known Member
I have encountered this situation twice, as I am sure everyone as read by now. The first one I made a comment to the pit basically accusing them as cheating and the pit guy just smiled at me. I would have thought he would have said "the machines can't do that" or something like that. That along with my results was enough for me to stop playing that location.
Second time, as everyone knows I posted my suspicions naming the casino and exact machines, here and at Norm's forum and someone else (not me) took the discussion to WoV as well. Within 2-3 days those 2 machines in question had been removed from the casino floor, never to have reappeared. Am I to believe that was a coincidence?
Second time, as everyone knows I posted my suspicions naming the casino and exact machines, here and at Norm's forum and someone else (not me) took the discussion to WoV as well. Within 2-3 days those 2 machines in question had been removed from the casino floor, never to have reappeared. Am I to believe that was a coincidence?
I wouldn't have handled it your way. You wanted to get the machines removed. I would have wanted to punish the casino and publicize their cheating. I'm not going to describe publicly how I might have accomplished that, but rest assured, it could be done more easily than you might imagine. And the end result wouldn't be taking the machines off the floor; the end result would be putting the casino out of business.
Don
Don
KewlJ
Well-Known Member
Don please don't talk down to me. I am not a businessman, but I make a living playing in casinos and do know the damage a cheating sandal could do to a casino.DSchles said:
Come on, you have been around a while, are you seriously alleging no casino has ever cheated? Back in your day, players knew some casinos cheated, dealing seconds and stuff and still the casinos thrived. That reputation didn't put them out of business. In more modern times, an awful lot of patrons suspect that some Indian casinos, especially those with little to no oversight cheat. Those casinos haven't one out of business.
Also I want to be clear that at no time did I personally allege that the commissions were complicit in this fraud. I don't know exactly when they knew, but I do believe they now do know and just like many things, they will act wen they are forced to and not before.
KewlJ
Well-Known Member
I wanted no part of being the face of a case James did. I am a small time anonymous player and want to continue that. I thought I was doing the right thing by warning players, both AP's and non-AP's by posting the details and name of casino and let them look for themselves. Of course I was too stupid to realize that a few of my fellow AP's were exploiting that very situation. Had I realized that, of course I would have just said nothing.DSchles said:
However, the outcome ended up being optimal for me. The specific machines in question were removed and I have been able to continue to play that location and it's games with no disruption and have enjoyed the same good results I have had for years. Had I put them out of business which was never my goal or intent, I don't see how I would have benefited from that.
Don, in huge corporations that are spread throughout the country how, is it even possible for an owner or CEO to know everything that is going on throughout the company. Doesn't it all come down to trusting upper management staff? When competing with all the competition as well looking over your shoulder for people looking for your job couldn't the human element of something illegal become a very real possibility of happening?DSchles said:
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Nightshifter
Well-Known Member
It's all very simple when it comes down to the bottom line... The casinos make money... and they make money for more than just themselves. All these 'control measures' in which the sole duty is to keep the games inline, sometimes look the other way based on an offer that couldn't be refused
Where there is money there is corruption! How Indian Tribes, the Mafia, and an Inattentive Congress Invented Gaming and Created a multi-billion Gambling Empire...
Where there is money there is corruption! How Indian Tribes, the Mafia, and an Inattentive Congress Invented Gaming and Created a multi-billion Gambling Empire...Nightshifter
Well-Known Member
Like I mentioned before, Harrah's in Rincon is still using Mindplay... although in a covert manner. You don't know they're using it unless you ask, and if you don't know what it is nor suspect it, you'll never ask =) Shift Boss told me exactly how it's all setup. The betting squares have sensors under them that track your betting. The chips are 'chipped'. Your initial buy-in amount is recorded via keypad that's mounted on the table after they swiped your 'players card'. Now supposedly, the shuffler can create groups of cards based on what's going on. It don't matter the amount of players usually, it's just the algorithm is designed to group the cards favoring house play and not BS. It's not perfect, but in the long run, it increases the drop substantially. Try this experiment: when you notice odd clumps of cards and the game really goes south because of these odd clumps of cards suddenly occurring, switch your play to play like the house regardless of the TC. No doubling, no splitting... hit everything until 17 or greater. You'll see how you'll even out and not nearly take such a bad hit at the expense of everyone calling you an 'a-hole'. I'm not talking about naturally occurring clumping, but clumping that is purposely induced by the machine over a period of time to subvert the game... especially the unwary AP. Usually what happens is that you'll get a lot of high value card pushes or near wins e.g., all twenties across the board (which is legally taking the 10's out of the deck), or all small cards across the board with more small cards coming to create poor double downs and the dealer patting with 4 or more card hands. Play like this until things get back to what would be considered normal.... You can add a tremendous edge if you get this right and can recognize when it's occurring outside the norm at the expense of you really looking like a foolish BJ playerKewlJ said:
Heh... I love that video and the subtle name "Smart Shuffler" LOL! I'll bring that up to my pit boss buddy next time Two key giveaways the casinos have been using this type of technology in one manner or another:a) You don't really need to know exactly what the card value/type is to know if any cards are missing... there's either 52 or not (decks vary). So why the camera or sensor in the shufflers...? Well the computer has to have some sorta eye to know the card values to do something 'evil'. If it didn't, it truly would just be a shuffler, and not a card reading shuffler. Then again, it will put the cards in 'pack' order saving personal from sorting so they can reuse them or a preferred order
not to mention identify exactly which card/cards are missing or surplus.b) You don't need shufflers on single deck games... period! Ask any dealer this question and it'll put a smirk on their face! Not even 2 deck games... a proficient dealer can riffle the cards very quick... why pay the lease fees associated with these machines in which the downtime is negligible unless they perform some sorta 'evil' act to increase the drop by as much as 20% over the long run =)
The machines are not associated with the casino, so if there's any sorta shenanigans r going on, they could defend themselves solely on the idea that it's a problem with e.g., Shuffle Master (SG Gaming) and they're not responsible. Believe me, they have nearly every legal angle covered should such a problem arise! The public is not allowed to get their hands on one of these machines. You must be a legally licensed gambling entity in order to lease one of these black boxes. Now Shuffle Master could retaliate and mention that they don't program the chips or design the chips. They're outsourced from another company... and so on. It's all a legal operation but operated under one authority LOL! The word legit and organized crime are synonymous these days....
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Nightshifter
Well-Known Member
KewlJ said:
Exactly how this would go down... just replace the words with "...were you aware of the cheating capacity of these machines if tampered with?" ... "no Mr. Chairman I wasn't"
"yet you admit this it's possible right?"
"... well anything is possible Mr. Chairman, but no we would never ever cheat anyone which would jeopardies our gaming license in the state of Nevada, and if we caught one of our employees cheating, he or she would be immediately dealt with (no pun intended)";
"... I see"
"... I have a sworn affidavit by several players stating the use of illegal shuffling machines on your property during the weeks of (whatever)"
"... ohhhh you mean Spiderman from BJ forums... well we did have a problem with two particular shufflers that weren't sorting the cards properly but that situation was promptly addressed and the machines were removed from play... I just want to make it clear that the public doesn't have to worry about being cheated... we like every casino in this state is under constant scrutiny by the Nevada Gaming Commission."
Nightshifter
Well-Known Member
Depends... if someone approaches you with his strong-arms by his side and tells you it was a coincidence... it was a coincidenceKewlJ said: