Help explaining this to family

[Koseao]

Treading on thin ice here.

The vast majority of people do NOT hold that Card Counting is a worthwhile endeavor.

This because it is seen as an activity that is highly materialistic and "money-grubbing", inasmuch as nothing of value is produce or accomplished and society in no way benefits from the activity. It fails the test of being "socially redeeming."

Obviously I do not conform to this mindset but I have found that it is extremely commonplace, especially among the more educated.

Years ago, a woman (I was cohabiting with) I informed re Card Counting. She was (seemingly) accepting of it, albeit with an insouciant shrug; until I took her to the Borgata.

She actually freaked out. She could not cope with some inner voice that was telling her that we should be spending our time growing vegetables or campaigning for a progressive politician, or demonstrating for some social cause.

Finally, after 2 (legal) marriages and many other serious relationships, (3 years ago) I married my current spouse in Las Vegas. Twenty minutes later we were seated at a poker table together. She has no problem with me hopping a jet and taking off for parts unknown on little notice. She understands that if I find conditions to my liking that a LOT of hrs. / days may be spent playing silly card games. Ahhh.

I hope some day to be able to just hop onto planes and take off for days. Time being some sort of mythical delusion. You're lucky to have someone who is loving enough to let you do that without harassment! Hmm.. there's people out there like that, that prospect makes me giddy. for now I still need to do convincing that this is even a worth while endevour!

 

[21forme]

Related question:
I have been doing this long enough and successfully enough that my wife has no problem with it.

However, she usually accompanies me to the casino once a week and tells her friends about her plans for the day. She doesn't play at all (despite my efforts to get her to do so). Many of her friends think I'm a compulsive gambler, going to the casinos at least once a week. Any suggestions on how to deal with this one? She's not sure what to tell them.

 

[StandardDeviant]

Related question:
I have been doing this long enough and successfully enough that my wife has no problem with it.

However, she usually accompanies me to the casino once a week and tells her friends about her plans for the day. She doesn't play at all (despite my efforts to get her to do so). Many of her friends think I'm a compulsive gambler, going to the casinos at least once a week. Any suggestions on how to deal with this one? She's not sure what to tell them.

Hmmm...I don't see a good answer here. Your wife doesn't want to lie to her friends, and there's really not good way to explain what you're doing.

 

[ExhibitCAA]

Irish says: "I can tell that no one here has ever done any special ops or covert activities..."

Um, maybe I'm a freak, but to me, my relationship with my SO is not a "special op" or "covert activity."

Irish says: "There is just no need to tell anyone you card count."

That may be true for casual associates or office colleagues, but that is nonsense when it comes to your SO. 1. If you can't be open and honest with your SO about things, then you have the wrong SO. 2. As a pro, it would be impossible for me to hide 100 hours per week from my SO. 3. You ignored what I said--at some point, a skilled player will need a teammate for a special game, perhaps a hole-card, perhaps a game where a specialized second count is needed, etc. At that point, the SO becomes the perfect teammate and will have to understand what's really going on.

Irish: "Try this: tell you S/O you have studied card playing and are out to have fun at the casino. And that you have budgeted a certain amount of money for recreation."

Oh, so you should admit that you're playing to lose?!? If I told that to my SO, she would say to herself, "I'm dating a loser. Time to trade up!"

As for the posts that actually deserve a response ...

Flash, the "Gambler's Guilt" that comes from not doing anything "productive" for society is not generally a problem for hobbyist players. Until Koseao goes pro, she needn't worry about that issue. A hobby is allowed to be "unproductive," in the same way watching movies is unproductive.

As far as the neighbors/friends of the spouse, and how to explain weekly trips to the casino, here is an idea, one that many pro blackjack players use when confronting those who "just don't understand" (such as TSA agents). We claim to be poker pros! For a variety of reasons, I would suggest that any blackjack player also learn to play No Limit Holdem to a competent level. Then, when anyone asks why you're going to the casino, the "poker tournament" or "checking on the soft 2-5 game" become reasonable explanations. Many people have been inundated with enough poker marketing that they now perceive poker as a skill game (though the millions in America are deluding themselves), and accept that there is such a thing as a "poker pro." And if you actually make some small (or large) portion of your gambling income from poker, then it's fine to tell people that you make money playing poker.

 

[QFIT]

Well these days, would you rather admit you were a card counter, or a banker, company CEO, congressman, fund manager, reporter, insurance executive, stock broker, or any number of other such "legit jobs?"

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Related question:
I have been doing this long enough and successfully enough that my wife has no problem with it.

However, she usually accompanies me to the casino once a week and tells her friends about her plans for the day. She doesn't play at all (despite my efforts to get her to do so). Many of her friends think I'm a compulsive gambler, going to the casinos at least once a week. Any suggestions on how to deal with this one? She's not sure what to tell them.

All depends, maybe she can play it up! Tell them you're into drinking and violence too. Wouldn't that be great cover to have her friends show up at the casino and start screaming at you how you're a good-for-nothing compulsive gambler! :joker:

Seriously, I assume she doesn't tell them you're an AP. Maybe a better angle is that even though she doesn't play, she really enjoys the restaurants rooms and entertainment, and you spend all that time at the tables just to get her comped all this stuff. That kind of turns it around on them... "hmm.. so how often does your husband take you out to someplace you enjoy?"

 

[StandardDeviant]

Well these days, would you rather admit you were a card counter, or a banker, company CEO, congressman, fund manager, reporter, insurance executive, stock broker, or any number of other such "legit jobs?"

And besides, it's not "gambling," it's "wealth redistribution."

 

[blackjack avenger]

Underplay Things & Let Results Speak

Since your family has been cool on the idea probably best to leave them out of it, at least until you can show some wins. Perhaps wait until you double your bank. :joker::whip:

If you are playing small stakes and infrequently it's not a big deal so you should not get much heat from home. If brought up in conversation by your family make it a point that you are playing small stakes.

In relationships people do things together and do some things separately.

Most gamblers lose so when anyone talks about making money in a casino there are skeptics. If one can show winning over time then it would be easier to quiet the skeptics and get others interested.:joker::whip:

 

[Automatic Monkey]

...
As far as the neighbors/friends of the spouse, and how to explain weekly trips to the casino, here is an idea, one that many pro blackjack players use when confronting those who "just don't understand" (such as TSA agents). We claim to be poker pros! For a variety of reasons, I would suggest that any blackjack player also learn to play No Limit Holdem to a competent level. Then, when anyone asks why you're going to the casino, the "poker tournament" or "checking on the soft 2-5 game" become reasonable explanations. Many people have been inundated with enough poker marketing that they now perceive poker as a skill game (though the millions in America are deluding themselves), and accept that there is such a thing as a "poker pro." And if you actually make some small (or large) portion of your gambling income from poker, then it's fine to tell people that you make money playing poker.

Nice idea, as the general public seems to be assimilating poker pretty well. Poker should be part of the skill set of an AP. But why do you recommend no-limit? Limit seems to me to be more within the mindset and experience of the blackjack AP, more math less psychology.

 

[FLASH1296]

There is sometimes a fairly simple answer to your crucial question as to whether or not Card Counting is worthwhile (for you).

There are overarching issues that preclude even considering serious card counting. Primary among them is emotional stability. This is "A very hard way to make an easy living." It is hard for nearly anyone living like a quasi-outlaw. You can trust in the following, after playing advantage BJ for a year or two or three the excitement wears thin. Very thin. In fact it disappears and becomes real drudgery. Anything repeated hundreds of thousands of times loses its appeal. If you are young you probably imagine that it is an exciting romantic lifestyle. If so you may have seen too many movies. I hate hotels, Just like the traditional "traveling salesman" does. I would like to raise bulldogs, but that requires a lot of time at home. I am a gourmet cook, but I cannot indulge that hobby from afar. etc. etc.
It depends on several factors:

IF you are still considering Card Counting, then there are several tangible factors to look at:

1. Bankroll.
2. Earning power.
3. Economic Freedom
4. Emotional Stability

As the number of dependents you have and accumulated debts rise, the more absurd card counting becomes.
As your earnings go up there is progressively less and less reason to count cards.
As your bankroll goes down that too, makes it more and more difficult to argue in favor of counting cards.

Economic freedom means having paid off your mortgage and having NO debts and a solid bankroll to keep your risk close to Zero. Most importantly it means that others, (spouse and spouselings) are not dependent on you.

Emotionally … Imagine that things are going poorly. You are on the wrong side of the normal curve. You are doubting your skills. You are staring at a dumb T V show wasting time in a cheap motel to reduce expenses. You are homesick and wondering what the purpose and meaning of your life is. This can be very depressing. Hey, you know what? If winning money the same scenario remains pretty much the same, unless you can convince yourself that collecting rectangular paper portraits of dead presidents is a good thing.

 

[FLASH1296]

I frequently use the Poker Professional ploy.

But the game to learn, as any A P should learn any game that affords an edge,
is any of the varieties of LIMIT POKER.

Limit Poker is what is called by mathematicians a "solved game"

It is possible to keep the flux manageable by playing limit poker.

When I tried it a few years ago I started by playing $5-$10 poker and moving up on a regular basis if my results were good . I progressed to the point where I was breaking even at the $20-$40 level of action. You need to be at a level where you can earn one big blind an hour to play as a pro.

I determined that I needed to invest a lot of time in order to improve my game sufficiently … but at least I can play.

 

[PrinceDragon]

Limit Poker is what is called by mathematicians a "solved game"

Can you specify this a bit more ?

TIA

 

[Tarzan]

Sugar-coated horse poop

I just read through this whole slew of posts and... came up with the ideal title of a post of my own for the following reasons:

Reality- Someone comes on here that is a new poster and says "I am relatively new to card-counting". In every instance that this occurs many of us roll our eyes and perhaps talk of the grim realities just a touch and know in the back of our minds that this person out there has less than a 5% chance of being successful even if they REALLY put their mind to it. What is the difference with THIS new poster? I am a CHICK! So the whole crew sugar-coats it all and paints a rosy picture and ignores any of the actual statistics, cheering her on.

One poster that talks of the freedoms, the hotel-hopping and the new want to be a counter says,"Oh that sounds rather alluring" sort of thing... but he left OUT the part about the difference between a newbie want to be a counter with limited bankroll that has a roughly 5% chance of survival and a player that has read every word of every blackjack book known to man, has 30 years of experience and has a half million bankroll. Can the new girl from Kansas absorb a $5000 loss in a day and not even bat an eyelash over it? OOPS! Did that poster leave out a few details of the grim blood and guts reality of it that he would NOT have left out had the new poster been purported to be a male? The same poster BLASTED another new GUY poster saying,"You are delusional, you have little or no experience, etc., etc." Here he says, "Sure, Honey you can do this and there's nothing to it (as far as the cash flow) but hanging out in hotel rooms away from home can be a strain, etc."

Gullible Buffoons-The initial post was made only yesterday and there are 3 or 4 pages of responses pertaining to the minor dilemma that the girl from Kansas is having with her boyfriend, her family... uhm... if I was a Griffin employee or a casino private investigator wanting to infiltrate a site such as this? I would be... a CHICK FROM KANSAS and not a guy named Harold from an office planted on the Vegas strip. I could ply all the boys for all their trade secrets, I could find out where they all play, I could find out anything I would want to about them in time. Saying that you have a pair of breasts attached to you obviously scores lots of attention!

When I am thinking about breasts, I can ask my wife to show me hers... if I am thinking about additional breasts perhaps I can ask her sister to do the same--- but if I am thinking about blackjack, I am only thinking about blackjack and staying focused and logical. I refuse to post differently or put out a different vibe or train of thought that deviates from the norm based on gender.

Movies?- At least two references to that silly movie "21" were made in this slew of posts as an example to the boyfriend or relatives that card-counting is legitimate and feasible. That movie is fictional hogwash! It's a fluffed-up piece of fiction designed to entertain that implies that if you are a counter there is no such thing as losing... EVER! It plants an unrealistic picture in people's minds with regard to the actual "nuts and bolts" of it all. I have seen a lot of novice want to be counters in the casinos get a very rude awakening as to just how fictional that movie was, so this could be a poor example. It was based on a true story with a heavy emphasis on the "based" part! Your typical whiz-bang that has a basic understanding of a rudimentary hi-lo system with a lousy few hundred backing them has an ice cube's chance in hell, despite what they see at the movies. Two posters say,"See?, girl from Kansas... Just show your boyfriend and relatives this movie and they will be totally understanding." Who knows? Maybe watching the silly movie WILL sell them but the downside is that you then have to make at least $350,000 a weekend and the boyfriend and relatives will all be expecting you to buy them yachts and helicopters and stuff?


"I don't think we're in Kansas anymore, Toto"

 

[ExhibitCAA]

Tarzan: "Reality- Someone comes on here that is a new poster and says "I am relatively new to card-counting". In every instance that this occurs many of us roll our eyes and perhaps talk of the grim realities just a touch and know in the back of our minds that this person out there has less than a 5% chance of being successful even if they REALLY put their mind to it. What is the difference with THIS new poster? I am a CHICK! So the whole crew sugar-coats it all and paints a rosy picture and ignores any of the actual statistics, cheering her on."

The poster did not ask about the viability of counting, or her likelihood of success, or whether the gambler's lifestyle is glamorous, or whether she should pursue counting as a job/career. She merely mentions the activity of counting and asks a specific question--How can she get her SO on board with her new hobby? I don't think most respondents are ignoring the grim realities of counting because of her claimed gender; rather, we're ignoring the grim realities of counting because that has nothing to do with her question. Frankly, I find it pretty annoying when I post a question and people like you give unsolicited advice on a completely different topic.

Tarzan: "One poster that talks of the freedoms, the hotel-hopping and the new want to be a counter says,"Oh that sounds rather alluring" sort of thing... but he left OUT the part about the difference between a newbie want to be a counter with limited bankroll that has a roughly 5% chance of survival"

The poster did not ask about any of this, and nowhere in her post did she even suggest that she was going to pursue this as anything other than a hobby.

Tarzan: "Gullible Buffoons-The initial post was made only yesterday and there are 3 or 4 pages of responses pertaining to the minor dilemma that the girl from Kansas is having with her boyfriend, her family... uhm... if I was a Griffin employee"

If you actually read her post, you'd see that she didn't ask about ANY sensitive material. No one is giving away the supersecret games just because of her claimed gender. When she does start asking about the supersecret games, if you think we're stupid enough to cough up the info, then you're just projecting. (BTW, no need to worry about Griffin agents; I'm not sure they know how to operate computers.)

Tarzan: "I refuse to post differently or put out a different vibe or train of thought that deviates from the norm based on gender."

If a guy had asked, "How can I explain counting to my girlfriend," I think the thread would have looked largely the same, at least as far as content, though perhaps with less participation, but that's just a crapshoot anyway. A thread in Voodoo might get tons of replies, if I happen to be in the mood to flame progressionists, or it might not.

Tarzan: "Movies?- At least two references to that silly movie "21" were made in this slew of posts as an example to the boyfriend or relatives that card-counting is legitimate and feasible. That movie is fictional hogwash!"

I doubt you even know enough to judge what is fictional hogwash and what is not, but that's not the point. I referenced the movie to address two issues: 1) legality of counting, 2) mathematical basis of counting. I don't care if the rest is ridiculous or not. If the grim realities of counting get glossed over, who cares? We're simply interested in gaining the acceptance of the SO, not learning the true lifestyle of a professional counter.

As for the issue of Limit vs. NoLimit poker, my recommendation has nothing to do with the counter's earnings potential in either game. The point was to create an explanation that the civilians can accept. For that purpose, I think NoLimit poker is what the civilians see on TV, and it's the game featured in most tournaments, and the civilians consider it a skill game.

 

[Tarzan]

Annoyance

I don't know squat, ExhibitCAA. I did the whole post specifically to be an annoyance to you, since you DO know squat?

 

[jimbiggs]

Hey everyone! I am new to the card counting thing. I have read a lot about card counting and have seemed to pick it up rather fast. Basics, I sure have not demolished anything at high levels. I was curious how you all have explained card counting to your significant others. My boyfriend is failing to see how it can be such an advantage. I am catching tons of grief from him and my family about the whole thing: from its' still gambling to not understanding the rise and fall that happens through out the shoe. Any ideas? Thanks so much!! I could use any help, I love it, and would like at least for my boyfriend to back me up. I would even be happy if he just pretended to be dealer for practice!

I have not read any posts in this thread other than the OP. I'm sure a lot of us go through things like this. Everyone doubts that you can win in a casino. Your significant other will be resentfull that you spend so much time "wasting money" instead of being with him/her. If you win, you just got lucky. If you lose, you're dumb because you didn't walk away. How do you deal with it? You decide what's important to you and put 100% of yourself into that. Maybe you just play bj once a month or maybe you only see your boyfriend once a month. It depends on how important it is to you. If it's about money, than a lot of us would make more money with a part-time job. Figure out why blackjack is important to you and decide how much time you're willing to invest in it.

I've been counting for three and a half years now. At first I was playing every weekend and even during the week. My wife wasn't happy about that. I cut back to once or twice a month. I started limiting myself to only playing high quality games, and ended up winning a lot more money in less time. She's ok with that.

My family thought I was just lucky and eventually I would lose everything if I didn't quit. When they found out that I've been barred from playing blackjack in 15 casinos, they started to believe that maybe I knew what I was doing. They didn't believe in me, but ironically they did believe in the casinos' judgement.

My in-laws are a different story. Nothing I do is right for them. So when I take a bj trip, my wife visits her family. Good for me. Good for her. Everybody wins because we found a good compromise. Hope this helps.

 

[ExhibitCAA]

jimbiggs, great point about barrings.

Civilians and weak counters celebrate barrings as a badge of honor. In fact, their descriptions usually go like this: "So-and-so counts cards. He's been barred from every casino in Las Vegas." So, I think this fact should be exploited. If Koseao does get barred somewhere, she should be sure to tell that to her SO. Furthermore, if they go to Vegas, it might even be a good idea for her to intentionally get herself backed off at some casino, like maybe the El Cortez. (The full procedure is on p. 13 of CAA.) This even gives the SO some good material when HE is trying to defend Koseao from the OTHER skeptics.

Also, it will help convince all the skeptics if you win every trip. To do that, you would have to play with a higher edge than counting cards. Koseao, check your PMs--I sent you a list of games that should prove profitable. Some of the "games" are actually the names of dealers. You are female, aren't you? If not, then disregard.

(I agree that claiming femaleness will trigger many more responses to a post, but that doesn't necessarily invalidate the content of those posts. If u think the gender bias in this thread is bad, then try the following: log into a Green Chip chat on Tuesday around 7:15pm Vegas time using the handle "Jenna" or "NewbieTiffany"--brace yourself.)

 

[JSTAT]

Civilians and weak counters celebrate barrings as a badge of honor.

Well excuse me ExhibitCAA, didn't you celebrate a barring at Barona as a badge of honor while being inducted into the Blackjack Hall of Fame there?

 

[Automatic Monkey]

....(I agree that claiming femaleness will trigger many more responses to a post, but that doesn't necessarily invalidate the content of those posts. If u think the gender bias in this thread is bad, then try the following: log into a Green Chip chat on Tuesday around 7:15pm Vegas time using the handle "Jenna" or "NewbieTiffany"--brace yourself.)

Oh I see, so how many times have you tried this? :laugh:

 

[blackchipjim]

gender bias responses

So if I were sitting here in my high heels and lace underwear asking you brutes questions you would take it easy on me?:laugh: