How do you quantify your bankroll?

[TheReach]

Whilst reading the various books on BJ most seem to talk about having a $10,000 bankroll and I just wondered what exactly do they mean by that. Do they mean you should have $10,000 in your pocket as it were or is it more compolicated than that, say have an actual "in the pocket" bankroll of maybe $1000 or $2000 and then add or take away fund depending on the swings?

Cheers

 

[Sonny]

Trip bankrolls

Typically your bankroll is the amount of money that you can comfortably allocate to gambling. It should be money that you do not have reserved for any other purpose and that you can afford to lose significant portions of. It need not be currently in your pocket, but it should be readily available in case of emergency.

If you take a short gambling trip then you will not need (or want) to bring your entire bankroll. Traveling with large amount of cash can be very dangerous. Ideally you would bring a smaller portion of your bankroll that you think will be sufficient for the length of your trip. Your bankroll may be $10,000 but you might only bring $5,000 for a weekend trip. It all depends on how much you think that you will need for the given time period. This is where trip ROR formulas come in handy.

-Sonny-

 

[zengrifter]

ALSO, the BR doesn't need to be entirlely liquid at the ready - for example if you have $1500 and you can comfortably add $500 per month to it for the next 12 months you can call it $7500 and bet as a $7500 BR would. zg

 

[21playerBJ]

Bankrolls

The Reach,
One approach that I like and use (and I believe many others probably do also) is to establish an OVERALL BANKROLL. This is your gambling/gaming money. It could be whatever amount you wish or can afford to designate as such (be it $10,000, $5,000 or even $1000). Whatever you choose and/or can afford.

That bankroll (your total amount) should then be proportioned into subgroups as you use them on your gambling trips........call these your TRIP BANKROLLS. The TRIP BANKROLLS would represent a portion of your OVERALL BANKROLL.

The TRIP BANKROLL should be calculated or determined by your SESSION BANKROLL. A SESSION BANKROLL is determined by several criteria. Say for example, that you wish to go on a blackjack gambling trip for 4 days. First determine how many times (sessions) that you may want to gamble during any given day. Example: You determine that each day you would like to gamble for a while (3 tables, 2 hours, whatever) during the morning, once in the afternoon, again in the evening and then again late at nite. Those four occasions would be considered 4 sessions. Then set a max limit of how much you would be "comfortable" loosing at each session (lets say $300). $300 is then your SESSION BANKROLL. That would mean that you would be "comfortable" loosing up to $1200 per day and since you are going to be there for 4 days, then your TRIP BANKROLL would be $4800 (4 days x $1200 per day). The $4800 should be all of the bankroll that you take with you on your 4 day trip. Other money will have to be taken to pay for the trip (hotel, food, taxis, shows, etc.). This "extra" money is not to be used to gamble with, it is only for paying for the trip.

After establishing your SESSION BANKROLL and working backwards to establish your TRIP BANKROLL, that may help you determine what size your OVERALL BANKROLL should be. You NEVER, NEVER, NEVER want to take all of your OVERALL BANKROLL as your TRIP BANKROLL. If your calculations work out that this is what you need to, then lower your SESSION BANKROLL losses OR reduce the number of sessions that you play per day.

I have found that if you guard all of your BANKROLLS as if they are your last one, and of course play well using all the tools that you know, then your BANKROLLS should last awhile and hopefully even GROW. Once they start growing, then you can up your SESSION BANKROLLS, or even play more sessions per day.

One last thing to maybe help you establish how big your SESSION BANKROLL should be. I have found that having a SESSION BANKROLL of at LEAST 100 times(maybe preferably 200 times) your standard betting unit is a good place to start, until you become more experieced and successful, then you might consider reducing that to 50 times or 100 times your standard betting unit (actually at this point what you would probably want to do is to double the size of your standard betting unit).

Hope this helps you and good luck.

 

[Sonny]

More specific for APs

The advice above is fine for basic strategy players, but the situation is much different for advantage players.

First determine how many times (sessions) that you may want to gamble during any given day…Then set a max limit of how much you would be "comfortable" loosing at each session (lets say $300). $300 is then your SESSION BANKROLL. That would mean that you would be "comfortable" loosing up to $1200 per day and since you are going to be there for 4 days, then your TRIP BANKROLL would be $4800 (4 days x $1200 per day).

Those requirements are pretty high, especially if you are only going to be playing 4-5 hours per day. The risk-of-ruin for a sixteen hour trip and a 960 unit bankroll is miniscule, even for a professional player (less than 1%).

I usually take 2-3 day weekend trips and get in about 16-20 hours of play. I have found that a 600 unit trip stake is enough to give me a low enough ROR for 20 hours of play. That is just my personal opinion so other players may have different requirements, but I think that most players will think that 960 units is overkill for such a short trip.

You NEVER, NEVER, NEVER want to take all of your OVERALL BANKROLL as your TRIP BANKROLL.

That may not always be true. If you are going on a long trip (more than one week) then your trip ROR will be much higher than your ROR for a weekend trip. After all, you don’t want to end up losing your trip bankroll on the fourth day because you will miss out on all the money you would have won on the rest of the trip. You can’t expect to win if you don’t play! Time spent away from the tables, for any reason, is lost EV.

I have found that if you guard all of your BANKROLLS as if they are your last one, and of course play well using all the tools that you know, then your BANKROLLS should last awhile and hopefully even GROW.

This can also cause some trouble if you lose a session bankroll in the middle of a session. If you are not willing to dig into another session bankroll then you will miss out on many opportunities. You will not be able to play accurate basic strategy because you will not have enough money to double, split, (or both!) or insure your last bet. You will also be walking away from many positive counts because you don’t want to lose more money, but you are actually costing yourself more money by walking away from an advantageous table and not playing accurately.

Although I agree that it is very important to be aware of how much money you have lost during a session, I think it is more harmful to strictly limit yourself to an arbitrary “stop-loss” amount if it will have you missing out on positive EV situations.

I have found that having a SESSION BANKROLL of at LEAST 100 times(maybe preferably 200 times) your standard betting unit is a good place to start…

This may become a problem as well. Buying in for $500 (or $1000!) and placing $5 bets will immediately identify you as a card counter. Your sessions should be short enough that you shouldn’t need 200 units to complete a session. Once your time is up you will leave and there is nothing wrong with walking away a loser, especially if the pit keeps a record of it.

My session bankrolls are 40 units. I usually don’t need more than that for a single session, although I am willing to buy in for more if the conditions are right or if I extend the length of my session.

Again, there is nothing wrong with the above advice for basic strategy players, but I though I should clarify some things for any card counters out there.

-Sonny-

 

[21playerBJ]

Sonny,
I agree with most of what you say for the AP, but I had the impression (maybe wrongly so) that TheReach might be somewhat new to blackjack gaming.........since he asked "what do they mean by a $10,000 bankroll". If I am correct regarding this, then my response was pretty much taylored to helping him avoid large percentage swings or large drawdowns in his bankroll that would have a tendency to limit correct strategy play (ie not being able to double down, double down after split, etc). Without a sufficient bankroll, a large drawdown could certainly make someone gun shy to "push out" the correct bet for the plays described above.

16 hours of gaming with a 960 unit bankroll is sufficient.........but I didn't limit the example I gave to only 16 hours of gaming. Quit actually, for 4 days with 4 sessions per day, it is probably quite a bit more than 16 hours. A session is not necessarily defined as a one hour session. It could possibly be as short as possibly 1/2 hour, but could be possibly as long as 3 or 4 hours, maybe even longer (I know that I have had some of my own sessions last as much as 5 or 6 hours). And if the session was as long as 3 hours or so, then with 4 of them per day on a four day trip, that could be as much as 48 or so hours of gaming. Then your 960 unit bankroll has a higher ROR, certainly more than "miniscule". Session "length" could be defined a number of different ways. TheReach could decide that he wants to play a minimum or specific number of tables, which he might choose to leave from each after a certain amount of time, or by how much he has possibly lost, or even by how much he has been fortunate enough to win. Then he might also decide that his session will be 3 or 4 hours long.......possibly the length of time between meals and/or shows or whatever.

I too just got back from a trip to LV for a weekend in which I got in about 28 to 30 hours of blackjack play. I also took about a 600 unit TRIP bankroll with me.

I'm not in agreement with you regarding taking all of one's OVERALL bankroll on a trip, even if it a longer one. If your overall bankroll is sufficiently large enough, then even a trip length of a week should not be all of your bankroll. If your bankroll is "limited", then one should adjust the basic betting unit downward to a smaller one, OR play fewer sessions during each day, maybe only 2 (not 3 or 4), OR set a smaller session bankroll. As you point out, you don't want to run out of money on the 4 day of your 7 day trip. If you hit an unfortunate unlucky stretch, lose today's 4 sessions worth of bankroll, use tomorrow's bankroll today because you think your luck will change, then that is exactly what will happen. You will run out of gambling money early in your tirp.

Of course, if you have run out of your planned session bankrolls (or daily bankrolls) early in your trip, then your EV hasn't been very positive, it has actually been quite negative. And there is no guarantee that your "realized" EV will go positive and you would become a winner and that by not playing the tables then you are misssing out EV. If one had their total bankroll with them when they experienced this losing streak, the temptation to dip into it and play with it to get caught-up on what has already been lost, is (at least in my opion) way to high of a risk for wiping out ones entire bankroll for the sake of being able to continue gambling for the remainder of the 2 or 3 days of the trip.

The purpose of the session bankroll is to control or limit your potential losses.
If you run out of your session bankroll in the middle of the session as you say, then your session should be OVER. That is why it is called and defined as a session bankroll. Besides, why would you want to dig into your next session bankroll to take advanatage of those similar opportunities that just caused you to lose this particular session bankroll? Take a break for awhile, go eat a meal, cool off, analyze what just happened during this session that caused you to lose this session bankroll. After that, begin a new session later on as originally planned. You also speak of advantageous tables and positive counts that might be missed. I am sure you realize that it just might have been those high positive counts and advantageous tables that "turned" on you and caused you to lose the session bankroll to begin with. How many times have you pushed out a max spread bet in a really high count, get dealt a two card 20, just to have the dealer either get a BJ or draw out to a 21? The count continues to be high or get even higher and you do it again thinking that you can't lose this hand, BUT you do. If you have lost your session bankroll in this situation, walk away from it NOW and begin a new session later, when the cards just might be going in your favor, rather than the dealer's.

One last comment, TheReach or anyone for that matter, never needs to buy in at a table with his/her full amount of the SESSION BANKROLL. If your session bankroll is $500, you can still buy in for $100 to $200, or maybe the amount that other players in that particular casino buy in for. If you happen to lose that initial buy-in, you can always go into the remainder of the session bankroll and use some more of it. Or if the situation calls for splitting up to four hands with an additional double down on three of them, then go into your pocket and get the extra cash you need. OR, if after losing the intial buy-in, you can get up from the table, look for another one that isn't quite as unlucky for you, and buy-in to that one with another $100-$200. Better yet, get up an walk away from the table when you are up. If your are "satisfied" with your winings (maybe you double your original buy-in amount) call off the session. End that session as a winning session. Then go back and play your next session, maybe the last one in the evening after dinner and show.

Sonny, I just wanted to clarify some of my positions regarding your responses. It may very well be that we are saying alot of the same thing, maybe just a little differently. And again, my original post was in response to TheReach, whom I perceived to be a relatively newer player (although I now realize that I may have incorrectly misjudged him).

Thanks for the good dialogue, Sonny. I hope that both of us were able to give some insight to TheReach in setting up a bankroll. As long as we were able to help him, it was worthwhile and good.

 

[zengrifter]

Of course, if you have run out of your planned session bankrolls (or daily bankrolls) early in your trip, then your EV hasn't been very positive, it has actually been quite negative. And there is no guarantee that your "realized" EV will go positive and you would become a winner and that by not playing the tables then you are misssing out EV. If one had their total bankroll with them when they experienced this losing streak, the temptation to dip into it and play with it to get caught-up on what has already been lost, is (at least in my opion) way to high of a risk for wiping out ones entire bankroll for the sake of being able to continue gambling for the remainder of the 2 or 3 days of the trip.

The purpose of the session bankroll is to control or limit your potential losses.
If you run out of your session bankroll in the middle of the session as you say, then your session should be OVER. That is why it is called and defined as a session bankroll. Besides, why would you want to dig into your next session bankroll to take advanatage of those similar opportunities that just caused you to lose this particular session bankroll? Take a break for awhile, go eat a meal, cool off, analyze what just happened during this session that caused you to lose this session bankroll. After that, begin a new session later on as originally planned. You also speak of advantageous tables and positive counts that might be missed. I am sure you realize that it just might have been those high positive counts and advantageous tables that "turned" on you and caused you to lose the session bankroll to begin with. How many times have you pushed out a max spread bet in a really high count, get dealt a two card 20, just to have the dealer either get a BJ or draw out to a 21? The count continues to be high or get even higher and you do it again thinking that you can't lose this hand, BUT you do. If you have lost your session bankroll in this situation, walk away from it NOW and begin a new session later, when the cards just might be going in your favor, rather than the dealer's.

The above two paragraphs contain some serious misconceptions. zg

 

[Canceler]

No kidding!

The above two paragraphs contain some serious misconceptions. zg

One thing I wish people would stop doing is using the term "EV" when they really mean "actual results".