How large a BR do I need to justify flying out to Vegas?

[MJ1]

Hey guys, I live in the Northeast and was wondering how large of a BR one should have to in order to justify flying out to Vegas...20k? 30k? 40k?

I can play both Hi-Lo and KO pretty well. The problem is finding good games which is a tough thing to do on the East coast. So I figure why not fly out to Vegas.

Now, suppose one plays from Fri through Sunday, how many hours can he put in at the tables during that time without overexerting himself and making errors?

How much do you think trip expenses will cost if one does not mind settling for meager accommodations (flight, hotel, meals, car rental, etc)? Don't forget to factor comps into the equation, one can always save money that way.

Which places in Vegas will offer good comps for my action?

Thanks guys,
MJ

 

[moo321]

GOOD FREAKING QUESTIONS! Boy, I'll tell you what, asking the right questions is more important than anything else. Well, we need some good cost accounting.

How much in expenses? Airfare? If you're playing green chips during the week, you should be able to get everything comped, as long as you're not overly picky about where you stay. On a weekend, you might need to be at higher green play to get rooms off-strip.

What is your hourly winrate? Running a sim, or checking "blackjack attack" should give you a good idea. How many hours can you squeeze in that time? I can play poker for about 12 hours a day before my brain turns to mush; never played more than 5 or 6 hours of blackjack.

I don't know what are the best places to get comps in Vegas, but I know it's now Harrah's.

 

[mdlbj]

5k should be enough, tip the waitresses well.

Hey guys, I live in the Northeast and was wondering how large of a BR one should have to in order to justify flying out to Vegas...20k? 30k? 40k?

I can play both Hi-Lo and KO pretty well. The problem is finding good games which is a tough thing to do on the East coast. So I figure why not fly out to Vegas.

Now, suppose one plays from Fri through Sunday, how many hours can he put in at the tables during that time without overexerting himself and making errors?

How much do you think trip expenses will cost if one does not mind settling for meager accommodations (flight, hotel, meals, car rental, etc)? Don't forget to factor comps into the equation, one can always save money that way.

Which places in Vegas will offer good comps for my action?

Thanks guys,
MJ

 

[shadroch]

NYC to Vegas,RT is about $400 these days.Don't forget to factor in your expenses to and from the airport,as well.
El Cortez will run you about $150 for Friday thru Sunday nights.If you are there to play BJ,skip the car. A shuttle from the airport to EC is less than $10. The EC has a free shuttle to the airport after you checkout.
Meals are cheap enough and if you are averaging $25 a hand,the EC will comp you a few meals after you give them six good hours.
I can play 10-12 hours a day error free,but you milage will differ.
$5,000 should be enough if you are playing $25 a hand.
Playing less,you chances of covering your expenses is slight.
If you can go Monday thru Thursday rather than a weekend,your expenses will drop by about a third.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

5k should be enough, tip the waitresses well.

Maybe $6-8K. Wonging the good shoe games on the Strip with a $200 max is the ticket.

 

[mdlbj]

Maybe $6-8K. Wonging the good shoe games on the Strip with a $200 max is the ticket.

So if he were to take 12 max bets for a trip bankroll at a 200 dollar max that would be... 2400.

Wait a sec.. 6-8k. What is a max bet with an 8k bank on a trip?

If he brought 5k, that would give him 24 max bets @ 200. Double the amunt he needs. 6-8k. Why?

 

[mjbballar23]

re

Are you referring to a total bankroll or trip bankroll?

 

[blackjack avenger]

Rambling Gambling Man

You need to compare the potential time you will be playing East coast vs Vegas.

You need to compare the dollar value for the games you will play East coast vs Vegas.

You need to compare your expenses for East coast vs Vegas. If the expenses are coming out of your bank roll then you need to adjust your potential bankroll East vs Vegas accordingly.

If you decide Vegas you should take about 50% of your bank with you, above expenses.

On amount of time you can play. You need to be honest and ask yourself how do you feel after you play your longest sessions. Do you stop after 5 hourse due to exhaustion, headaches or because your wife/whatever is tired?

If you have never been to Vegas you will probably lose time because you are not familiar with everything and will get lost or delayed at various times, but if you never go you never become familiar with the place.

If the expenses are as high as $600 and your bankroll is only $6,000 then that is 10% of bank just to get to Vegas, that is a tough start.

It's not so much the bankroll size but when the numbers work for Vegas to be more profitable then the East. If you want an actual number perhaps 10g with expense money on top of that can be considered a nice round reasonable number.

This type of analysis can be done even if you are just a basic strategy player, then it becomes a matter of which place will you lose less.

Bonus points if you get the title reference?

 

[MJ1]

NYC to Vegas,RT is about $400 these days.Don't forget to factor in your expenses to and from the airport,as well.
El Cortez will run you about $150 for Friday thru Sunday nights.If you are there to play BJ,skip the car. A shuttle from the airport to EC is less than $10. The EC has a free shuttle to the airport after you checkout.
Meals are cheap enough and if you are averaging $25 a hand,the EC will comp you a few meals after you give them six good hours.
I can play 10-12 hours a day error free,but you milage will differ.
$5,000 should be enough if you are playing $25 a hand.
Playing less,you chances of covering your expenses is slight.
If you can go Monday thru Thursday rather than a weekend,your expenses will drop by about a third.

Whoa hold up guys, I am talking about TOTAL BR, not trip BR. How large of a BR should I have in order to fly out to Vegas? Do you think 20 hours is a reasonable estimate of how many hours one can play from Fri night to Sunday night?

It sounds to me like expenses will run at least $600 (NYC to Vegas RT+hotel, meals, car rental, etc)even with meager accommodations. If they give me comps then expenses will be less. Can a counter earn comps while reverse wonging (leaving negative shoes)?

The bottom line is I think I would have to earn at least 3 to 4 times my expenses in EV to justify the cost of the trip. If I play 20 hours, then $600/20 hours = $30/hr in trip expenses. So, I would need at least $90/hr in EV I think. Does that make sense?

Rounds per hour-- How many can I get in an hour? I think 50 to 60 would be a reasonable estimate. Perhaps more if I played during the week. Better to be conservative than too optimistic, right?

When it comes to the comp game, should I use my real ID or try and acquire an "alternate" form of ID?

MJ

 

[Automatic Monkey]

So if he were to take 12 max bets for a trip bankroll at a 200 dollar max that would be... 2400.

Wait a sec.. 6-8k. What is a max bet with an 8k bank on a trip?

If he brought 5k, that would give him 24 max bets @ 200. Double the amunt he needs. 6-8k. Why?

Because 24 max bets isn't enough when you're Wonging. A Wonger is putting max bets down all the time. Remember-he's flying to Vegas, he can't get any more money and he can't get home until his flight is due to return. It's going to be a full day's EV just to cover his expenses at this bet size so he needs to be there for several days to make this worthwhile.

If he's playing any non-surrender games, I'd say $10K to be safe for a half-week trip.

 

[Brock Windsor]

If you could play 20 hours in Vegas on a weekend after flying there, getting rooms, flying home for work Monday... How many hours could you play locally? If you can drive to a local joint and play the crappier game but sleep in your own bed and eat meals at home you will probably be able to stand more time at the table. If the cost difference between the two is $600 you should also consider you could probably play a few extra hours at home. Figure your expected units/hr at home * max hours at the table in a weekend - costs.....Then calculate expected units/hr in LV * max hours at the table in a weekend - costs. If you can make 1 units / hr at home over a 24hr weekend and 2 units / hr in Vegas over 20hr weekend and pay a $600 premium for it your breakeven is about a $40 1 unit bet. If your BR is 1000 units then a 40K BR is what you need. Im sure the math won't be as easy as this but if you've kept a good ledger and can check the freq charts to find out how much higher your expectation is in the Las Vegas games (I doubt it will be double but it could be) that's your breakeven. Since you're estimating you need to be making $90/hr in Vegas to justify the flight we are probably in the ballpark.
BW

 

[callipygian]

When it comes to the comp game, should I use my real ID or try and acquire an "alternate" form of ID?

I, for one, have never understood how people manage to win any significant amount of money from a casino AND get comps at the same time.

There is one identifying mark of a card counter which can never be camoflaged, hidden, or explained away - winning money in the long run. If they have your card, they have that information. If you don't give them the card, or rotate between many cards, then you don't get comps (or get insignifiant comps).

This honeypot is drying up, but for a few years from 2003-2005, you could register as a poker player to get a discounted room rate. The great thing was that once you qualified (by playing 6-8 hours a day), you never had to qualify again. The discounted rates are getting more expensive now; they've nearly doubled since 2005 at the places I'm registered at.

 

[21forme]

I, for one, have never understood how people manage to win any significant amount of money from a casino AND get comps at the same time.

There is one identifying mark of a card counter which can never be camoflaged, hidden, or explained away - winning money in the long run.

It's called rat-holing chips. Say your a green chip player. Squirrel away 4 greens/hour, win or lose and you'll look like a loser in the long run.

Several months ago, there was a competitive upgrade offer at a local casino - sign up for their premium card and they will reimburse up to 50% of a $500 loss the first hour of play. I played BJ and won about $400 in that hour. Their were some crazy green chip bettors at the table (1 green one hand, a 3 inch high pile the next hand, etc.) I knew the pit would never be able to track greens the way they were flying in and out of the tray, so I very agressively rat-holed greens and wound up getting $225 back for my "loss."

 

[Automatic Monkey]

It's called rat-holing chips. Say your a green chip player. Squirrel away 4 greens/hour, win or lose and you'll look like a loser in the long run.

Several months ago, there was a competitive upgrade offer at a local casino - sign up for their premium card and they will reimburse up to 50% of a $500 loss the first hour of play. I played BJ and won about $400 in that hour. Their were some crazy green chip bettors at the table (1 green one hand, a 3 inch high pile the next hand, etc.) I knew the pit would never be able to track greens the way they were flying in and out of the tray, so I very agressively rat-holed greens and wound up getting $225 back for my "loss."

Not only that, just because you are winning a lot at a particular store isn't enough to prove you are playing with an advantage. There are plenty of lucky ploppies with bigger wins in any one store than you or I, and the casino would love to have them back.

By the time you have played enough to statistically demonstrate to them with good certainty you're an AP, it's too late. You've already had weeks of comped rooms and meals and many thousands of dollars cash at their expense.

 

[eandre]

o

I, for one, have never understood how people manage to win any significant amount of money from a casino AND get comps at the same time.

I can tell you from first hand experience that even today, my wife and I can get air fare, suites, and food covered 100% either through our national host,property host,comps earned during the stay or a combination of all. We only pay taxes/tips and have for the last 5 years and yes we use our real names and yes we win consistently.
We always strive to look like losers and in fact my wife is so smooth at stashing chips, at times I don't see her. Your average bets need to be upwards of $200/hand and you must be willing/able to play a minimum of 4 hours each day. Some days we exceed 8-10 between 2-3 sister properties. You have to love the cat/mouse game and have a smooth presentation. P.s. did you know that most large propeties even have rooms with butlers?

 

[callipygian]

Squirrel away 4 greens/hour, win or lose and you'll look like a loser in the long run.

I only just signed up for an MGM rewards card recently, but from what the cashier told me, it seems like green action isn't enough to get RFB comps at places that wouldn't notice green ratholing, and green ratholing would get noticed at places that would give out rooms for green action.

Can you really, say, get comped a room at the Bellagio for 4-6 hours of green play a night? Or could you really get away with ratholing greens at the Tropicana?

 

[callipygian]

P.s. did you know that most large propeties even have rooms with butlers?

I didn't know, but I'm not surprised.

Here's a question: I've heard that hotels would provide associates with ready connections to drugs and loose women for their high rollers (but of course, refrain from providing those services themselves). Any truth to the rumor?

 

[eandre]

Sorry, never explored the seedy side to comps. I doubt that any public company would provide any illegal services. But since Pahrump is just 60 miles and has brothels, I bet a few high rollers get limo rides.

 

[Nutorious]

Wait, sorry this is a comment for the previous message of how do you get comps even if you win.

Don't you get comps wether you win or lose? Say you bet £20 and you either win or lose that bet, you will still get 2 comp points regardless of winning or losing? (saying 1 comp point every £10)?

 

[Automatic Monkey]

I didn't know, but I'm not surprised.

Here's a question: I've heard that hotels would provide associates with ready connections to drugs and loose women for their high rollers (but of course, refrain from providing those services themselves). Any truth to the rumor?

Certainly not. Casinos make their money providing a vice and they don't want you spending your money on competing vices. This is why they've kept the brothels out of Las Vegas. They may be tolerant of high rollers bringing their other existing vices along with them, but anyone conducting any other kind of business in their casino is not welcome.