I can answer any clumping question here.

[AchillesBlackjack]

G Man, I thought I wrote "That doesn’t necessarily mean the ASM is rigged". BJGenius said it earlier. the big cards could be anywhere. They are not intentionally hidden behind the cut card by the casino. As long as the players cut the cards, the casino can't do that. Nobody said anything like this here. Why do you say that?

Now why not bet up if count rises? Well we are talking about a very specific situation here. It's not as if it looks like it's the shoe of the day.
if RC goes +20,+25, +30 every other shoe (or most of them) odds are you are getting killed with max bets because the high cards do not come out.

The wong-out proposition at strong negative counts is obviously correct although it's possible to survive with adequate card-play.

Like you, I would like to see videos from Kjewjl if he has the machine but if it's been "tricked" it would probably look like CV with the Bias set at random extreme levels. Then you'd frequently see RCs between +40 and -40.

If the shoe gives high counts every other. Then that’s just variance. Have to remember Blackjack is beatable about 25% of the time. So 25% of the time it will be TC1+. If we are talking about millions of shoes. That’s very possible to have “every other” shoe be super positive. But to touch on the getting killed with max bets because high cards do not come out…are referring they are all behind the cut card? Which we seem to agree on that player cuts then it’s impossible to implement consistently.

 

[Secretarriat]

This is just for fun. Here's a crazy hand I just had with CV set up at random extreme bias. You'll notice eight 9s on the table and only 2 tens at TC1 after 1 deck before the deal. Crazy hands happen quite often with this set up and require unusual strategy deviations. Keeping two or three side counts in this game is quite a challenge. Did not split my 99 v 9 at second base expecting dealer to have 678 or 9 because it's not a normal game. He had a 3. Dealer would also have made his hand had I split. Practicing with this set up is fun and really tough. I would not recommend it to new counters except for getting used to high counts.

 

[LV Bear]

So I’m not nearly as experienced AP probably as anyone in this forum. But one thing I can confirm as former dealer and who’s wife is an operations manager of a casino. That no dealer in any casino I’ve interacted with has “manipulated” the cards purposely. No casino would risk asking employee of this. It’s way too scandalous. ... Why would casino risks their gaming license? And heavy fines? Reputation ruined? ... One law suit for something like this would make casino come crashing down or very least distrusted among locals. ...

I am not in any way commenting on the clumping discussion, but must point out that you severely overestimate the integrity of casino managers. There have been many documented cases of casinos cheating patrons, or cheating to favor specific patrons to the detriment of others. For some examples, see:
https://bj21.com/category/patron-abuse/pages/links-to-media-coverage-of-casino-abuse-of-patrons

One of the big casinos on the Las Vegas Strip, the Venetian, was involved in a major cheating scandal a few years ago, rigging a drawing so a specific high roller won.

The Cosmopolitan is currently involved in litigation in a case where it ejected a player and were able to avoid him being in a lucrative promotion, though he clearly was eligible for it.

Casinos in other markets have been involved in dishonest behavior as well. The brief bad publicity did not seem to hurt them.

The crooked employees were not banned from the industry. In some cases, they were not even fired.

I am not suggesting that casinos cheat regularly as a matter of policy, but that specific crooked managers or even shift bosses may be inclined to cheat for any number of reasons. Rarely is much done if they are caught. The theoretical remedy of license revocation is a myth. It just does not happen. In Nevada, the Gaming Control Board is particularly weak, legally allowed to operate in virtual secrecy, and is a good friend of the "regulated" casinos. The casinos are certainly not afraid of the Board.

 

[Secretarriat]

Thanks for showing up LV Bear. Interesting stuff. I've seeen your handle here and there but I did not look beyond the threads. I just checked the links you provided and your site. Impressive! You have a new reader!

 

[The G Man]

So, is that video demo coming soon ???

 

[Playallin]

+2

-2

 

[The G Man]

-2, -3 lower it as long as you like BUT the fact remain: We are still waiting that demo.

 

[Secretarriat]

-2, -3 lower it as long as you like BUT the fact remain: We are still waiting that demo.

I think Kewjl said at one point he doesn't have the machine anymore. So I don't expect to see a video. I Just hope BJGenius007 is OK. We were expecting one more answer from him.

 

[LC Larry]

It's becoming quite clear that some of the supposed "pros" here are simply a bunch of ploppies. Some of which have been busted for lying in the past.

 

[LV Bear]

Thanks for showing up LV Bear. Interesting stuff. I've seeen your handle here and there but I did not look beyond the threads. I just checked the links you provided and your site. Impressive! You have a new reader!

Thank you.

 

[KewlJ]

I think Kewjl said at one point he doesn't have the machine anymore. So I don't expect to see a video. I Just hope BJGenius007 is OK. We were expecting one more answer from him.

Wait, these guys are talking to/about me, with this demo request? Dream on.

The shuffle machine I purchased and had possession of, I only processed for a few weeks. Truth be told, I was rather uncomfortable having this machine in my possession as they are highly protected. After I saw what I needed to see, I sold the machine to a well known, top AP here in Vegas. You guys should know who I am speaking of. You can ask him for a demo. Good luck with that.

I too want to thank LVBear for "reminding" everyone of the casino industries history when it comes to cheating. This industry takes the low road almost every chance they have to do so and legality has never been a barrier to that. It always shocks me when the first argument out of anyone's mouth is "they would never do that, they have too much to lose". THAT argument is off the table.

The facts are this. The technology for this is there. And there is nothing stopping this industry from using it....especially any kind of oversight from Nevada Gaming. Anyone arguing that is joking I hope.

 

[AchillesBlackjack]

Wait, these guys are talking to/about me, with this demo request? Dream on.

The shuffle machine I purchased and had possession of, I only processed for a few weeks. Truth be told, I was rather uncomfortable having this machine in my possession as they are highly protected. After I saw what I needed to see, I sold the machine to a well known, top AP here in Vegas. You guys should know who I am speaking of. You can ask him for a demo. Good luck with that.

I too want to thank LVBear for "reminding" everyone of the casino industries history when it comes to cheating. This industry takes the low road almost every chance they have to do so and legality has never been a barrier to that. It always shocks me when the first argument out of anyone's mouth is "they would never do that, they have too much to lose". THAT argument is off the table.

The facts are this. The technology for this is there. And there is nothing stopping this industry from using it....especially any kind of oversight from Nevada Gaming. Anyone arguing that is joking I hope.

I was really hoping you would still have the machine to make a demo... That would of been tipping point in the argument. Likely would of changed everyone's mind here. But now we are here left with only hearsay. No hard evidence. So much like Don said "the beat goes on".

As for Casino's cheating... Nevada Gaming commission may or may not be crooked. But that doesn't represent all. I know here in Ontario, whom Casino's are regulated by Ontario Lottery Gaming(OLG). They are extremely powerful and not be taking lightly. Even the "tribal" Casino's can't escape grasp of OLG. I've personally seen OLG strip Gaming licenses off people for violating privacy contact. Which could be easily as answering the phone and telling someone's wife that yes they are here playing. If you have no gaming license(badge) you can't legally be employed by a Casino in Ontario. Also have go through significant background search and interviews in order to obtain one. I didn't know Nevada was so poorly managed. I had higher expectations for the mecca of gambling.

As for the technology is there? I agree with that. Those shufflers have "sort" mode. Which I explained already. But if clumping on purpose on happens....I don't know....But strongly doubt it until proven other wise.

 

[KewlJ]

I was really hoping you would still have the machine to make a demo... That would of been tipping point in the argument. Likely would of changed everyone's mind here. But now we are here left with only hearsay. No hard evidence. So much like Don said "the beat goes on".

While I don't have this machine, I know who does. But I am rather certain, this person will not be posting any "demo" on any forum. Doing so invites all kinds of trouble for owning or possessing a machine illegally.

On top of that, this person is a top AP and his interest isn't educating or warning other players as mine initially was. His interest is solely using this information to gain an advantage.

 

[LC Larry]

While I don't have this machine, I know who does. But I am rather certain, this person will not be posting any "demo" on any forum. Doing so invites all kinds of trouble for owning or possessing a machine illegally.

On top of that, this person is a top AP and his interest isn't educating or warning other players as mine initially was. His interest is solely using this information to gain an advantage.

Face the facts. That machine IS NOT a legitimate casino shuffler. It's an AFTERMARKET KNOCKOFF!

 

[The G Man]

If it was a legitimate machine, why would it be "some kinds of trouble owning it" ?

 

[Secretarriat]

Let’s recap!

This thread was open by BJGenius007 to answer clumping questions
BJGenius has studied the subject methodically for many years.
He said he sees clumping on ASMs four times as often as with hand shuffles
He said his EV is now better with ASMs provided some adjustments.
He mentioned some of the adjustments that could be done.

Kewjl is convinced that ASMs can be programmed and he verified this.
He plays a lot of blackjack but has only seen 2 to 4 casinos modifying the ASM.
BJGenius says “tricking” ASMs is more frequent than Kewjl says.
Both say clumping can be beaten.

Don S says random clumping can also be very extreme and it’s certainly true.

BJGenius and Kewjl say that extreme counts (positive or negative) will happen more often with “manufactured” clumped cards.

The Casino Verite software set up at random extreme bias will create TC4+ counts at around 20% of the time and TC4- counts also 20% of the time. Normally those extreme counts should not represent more than 1% of our hands.

Now here’s one theoretical question.

What would be the SCORE when playing shoes that goes beyond TC4 20% of the time or lower than TC-4, 20% of the time, using traditional ramping. If anyone has the ability to sim this, that would be interesting to see the results instead of free allusions to “garbage” and the likes. That would be a theoretical first step.

Now for real world, the clumping could be less extreme. For example, Kewjl mentioned 192 shoes of 202 reaching TC4 or TC-4 at one casino, which doesn’t necessarily mean 20% of hands are over TC4 or 20% are under TC-4.

Attached is a log of an extreme shoe as an example.

 

[21forme]

Doing so invites all kinds of trouble for owning or possessing a machine illegally.

It's only illegal if it's stolen property. This is a shuffler, not Fentanyl.

 

[johndoe]

It's only illegal if it's stolen property. This is a shuffler, not Fentanyl.

Exactly. If it's not stolen, there is no problem whatsoever in owning it (or selling it). Even if it was, it would be quite a task for the manufacturer to prove it and get it back.

 

[Nightshifter]

While I don't have this machine, I know who does. But I am rather certain, this person will not be posting any "demo" on any forum. Doing so invites all kinds of trouble for owning or possessing a machine illegally.

On top of that, this person is a top AP and his interest isn't educating or warning other players as mine initially was. His interest is solely using this information to gain an advantage.

KewlJ (and you know i'll always show up when the topic is about clumping lol) is exactly right. These casinos own the companies (in a roundabout way) that make the shuffling machines & programable chips. To exploit one of these would be signing your own death warrant (i don't mean this literally). These machines have the capability to clump 10's out of play more than what would be considered normal. It was mentioned that the casino has no idea where the players will cut? Exactly! They play by percentages. Most people (ploppies, patrons and party hats) cut within the upper part of the deck. Most players play via basic strategy more or less =) Armed with this knowledge makes most players predictable to the casino. Sure, they don't know every time, but if they can get it right 7 times out of 10, that will increase the drop significantly. I was told that I can do what I want to warn people via a casino manager at a local Indian casino, but things aren't going to change. I myself who had been a dealer, know how to circumvent the deck in favor of the house rules and have been told by the pit boss to 'chunk up the deck' to cool off the table for whatever reason. This happens more than you realize. Now as for deliberately cheating via slight of hand, holdout shoes (you don't need a holdout shoe to cheat really if you're skilled enough) ... wearing a ring to reflect the next card so you deal seconds... whatever... just ask Don about what he knows what all goes on based on his experience =) You better believe that card manipulation goes on and who are you to fight it? I even had pit bosses oversee dealers to see how well they could cheat the table. Everyone was smirking in the pit because the players had no clue other than they were statistically losing a lot more than they should over time =) Just like the markets... most traders read the books on how to trade for a living although 90% of traders lose! Those books make the majorities actions predictable to the crooked institutions. If you really think that what is said in all those books is how the markets work... dig deeper! Where there's is money; there's corruption! I always said (and most other dealers agree) there's no need for shuffle machines for single deck games. Good dealers will say this is true for two deck games as well!

 

[stefan]

I don't post often at the forums but I keep a close eye on them.general I want to believe that we are all at the same side and not enemys.i dont want to express public my opinion about clumping or cheating or what ever.what I suggest is people make a scouting at the strip of Vegas casinos and to some casinos outside the strip And see the penitration and the heat at asm and hand dealt games .I am not trying to escalate the conversation.i just try to have some legit answers about this issue

p.s I want to take the moment and public thanks people like LV bear for his knowledge and advice general and particularly in the conditions at reno