I lied
- Thread starter Tarzan
- Start date
creeping panther said:
My dear friend, hope you and the family are all well this nasty winter. 
As you can probably tell I am just having some fun Tweaking our East Coast friends. :laugh:
Let me know when you have some thoughts on the 09 Bash.:band2:
Best To You,
CP
As you can probably tell I am just having some fun Tweaking our East Coast friends. :laugh:
Let me know when you have some thoughts on the 09 Bash.:band2:
Best To You,
CP
I do play 8 deckers if the penetration is sufficient, and the rules are favorable. With sufficient penetration, an 8-deck game is superior to 6-deck games (or even many DD's).
I haven't done the analysis for a 9-10 deck game, but with sufficient penetration, of course they're beatable.
You can't compare games based purely on # of decks. Pen rules all. I'd much rather play an 8-deck game with <1 deck cut off, than a 6-deck game with 2 decks cut off. Wouldn't you?
Do this for me - find the SCORE for an 8 deck game with .75 deck cut off, and let me know how that compares to a 6D game with 1.5-2 decks cut.
I haven't done the analysis for a 9-10 deck game, but with sufficient penetration, of course they're beatable.
You can't compare games based purely on # of decks. Pen rules all. I'd much rather play an 8-deck game with <1 deck cut off, than a 6-deck game with 2 decks cut off. Wouldn't you?
Do this for me - find the SCORE for an 8 deck game with .75 deck cut off, and let me know how that compares to a 6D game with 1.5-2 decks cut.
creeping panther said:
John, Do you play 8 deckers?
Do you think that 9 or 10 deckers are beatable?
If the casino keeps hearing how great you gents feel 8 deckers are you will soon be facing even more decks
John, are 8 decks better than 6, or 4 or 2 ?
Remember at one time all BJ was 1 deck
Now we are up to 8 :laugh:
CP
Do you think that 9 or 10 deckers are beatable?
If the casino keeps hearing how great you gents feel 8 deckers are you will soon be facing even more decks
John, are 8 decks better than 6, or 4 or 2 ?
Remember at one time all BJ was 1 deck
Now we are up to 8 :laugh:
CP
You're missing some good games, then, but to each his own.
Of course! But with game selection, you have to consider all variables, including # decks, rules, penetration, as well as time and cost of travel, etc. if relevant. There are some excellent 8-deck games out there that beat Vegas strip hands-down.
Example SCOREs, S17/DAS/LS, 1-10 Hi-lo Ill18/F4:
(Dead link: http://www.bjstats.com/bjre.asp)
cut 2/6D = 17.56
cut 1.5/6D = 27.39 (typical Vegas strip)
cut 1/8D = 35.93 (my 8D game)
The 8-deck game I play most often is far better than the typical Vegas strip game. How is this a bad thing?
To those casinos that offer *this* 8 deck game, I say, thank$ very much!
All things being equal you would choose fewer decks right...hope so.
Example SCOREs, S17/DAS/LS, 1-10 Hi-lo Ill18/F4:
(Dead link: http://www.bjstats.com/bjre.asp)
cut 2/6D = 17.56
cut 1.5/6D = 27.39 (typical Vegas strip)
cut 1/8D = 35.93 (my 8D game)
The 8-deck game I play most often is far better than the typical Vegas strip game. How is this a bad thing?
To those casinos that offer *this* 8 deck game, I say, thank$ very much!
John
John,
My game-128.08 :laugh:
To those casinos that offer this game, I say, :gaga::1st::grin:
But, so what? You would play it, could play it, I DO play it.
CP
johndoe said:
You're missing some good games, then, but to each his own.
Of course! But with game selection, you have to consider all variables, including # decks, rules, penetration, as well as time and cost of travel, etc. if relevant. There are some excellent 8-deck games out there that beat Vegas strip hands-down.
Example SCOREs, S17/DAS/LS, 1-10 Hi-lo Ill18/F4:
(Dead link: http://www.bjstats.com/bjre.asp)
cut 2/6D = 17.56
cut 1.5/6D = 27.39 (typical Vegas strip)
cut 1/8D = 35.93 (my 8D game)
The 8-deck game I play most often is far better than the typical Vegas strip game. How is this a bad thing?
To those casinos that offer *this* 8 deck game, I say, thank$ very much!
Of course! But with game selection, you have to consider all variables, including # decks, rules, penetration, as well as time and cost of travel, etc. if relevant. There are some excellent 8-deck games out there that beat Vegas strip hands-down.
Example SCOREs, S17/DAS/LS, 1-10 Hi-lo Ill18/F4:
(Dead link: http://www.bjstats.com/bjre.asp)
cut 2/6D = 17.56
cut 1.5/6D = 27.39 (typical Vegas strip)
cut 1/8D = 35.93 (my 8D game)
The 8-deck game I play most often is far better than the typical Vegas strip game. How is this a bad thing?
To those casinos that offer *this* 8 deck game, I say, thank$ very much!
My game-128.08 :laugh:
To those casinos that offer this game, I say, :gaga::1st::grin:
But, so what? You would play it, could play it, I DO play it.
CP
creeping panther said:
John,
My game-128.08 :laugh:
To those casinos that offer this game, I say, :gaga::1st::grin:
But, so what? You would play it, could play it, I DO play it.
CP
My game-128.08 :laugh:
To those casinos that offer this game, I say, :gaga::1st::grin:
But, so what? You would play it, could play it, I DO play it.
CP
But a guy in Northern Nevada will occasionally play a game with a SCORE of 200. So what? We've all got to play the games we've got.
I quoted a couple points I'll contest. The same folks that catch counters, are also looking for cheats so to justify their more important job (catching cheats) they identify counters to seem more necessary to the casino. Cheats DO take vast sums of money from casinos, and are harder to catch than a counter IMO. Secondly ASM's do not scare off ploppies, AND they get more hands per hour. Many rec counters like ASM's to increase hands per hour if they are not shuffle tracking. I think using more ASM's will help a casinos bottom line, not hurt it. CSM's have the opposite effect.
BW
BW
It means to play poorly or irrationally because you're angry (steam coming out of your ears).
Shoe deck games are more prevalent than any other type; if you're taking a lot of time to backcount, you're simply ignorant on how to work the shoe games.
You can easily get SCORE's of 60-120 on most 6-8D games (beyond 6D, it really doesn't matter whether you're at 8D or 20D) with Wonging, and there's a lot more Wongable 6-8D games than whatever game you're playing which is so precious you can't disclose it.
But if you're using SCORE to quantify a Wonging game, you're probably not doing it right to begin with. Wonged games have inflated SCORE's because hands seen and hands played are different.
I thought all of this was pretty obvious, but I guess it's not.
Shoe deck games are more prevalent than any other type; if you're taking a lot of time to backcount, you're simply ignorant on how to work the shoe games.
You can easily get SCORE's of 60-120 on most 6-8D games (beyond 6D, it really doesn't matter whether you're at 8D or 20D) with Wonging, and there's a lot more Wongable 6-8D games than whatever game you're playing which is so precious you can't disclose it.
But if you're using SCORE to quantify a Wonging game, you're probably not doing it right to begin with. Wonged games have inflated SCORE's because hands seen and hands played are different.
I thought all of this was pretty obvious, but I guess it's not.
It all depends. The SCOREs for games I play are played as sit at shuffle, Wong out, with a 1-8 spread. But at the same time, it's in a store so big that when you Wong out there is always a new shoe starting nearby. So hands seen and hands played are the same.
If you are not entering a shoe until you have an advantage, that's a different kind of play and you have to take into account when you stop watching a shoe and start watching another one, or if you are able to backcount two shoes. Or if you are willing to backcount shoes that have already started. And if it's a small store where you usually have to wait a while for a new shuffle, that's a different kind of play still.
Even the worst games can be beaten with backcounting, patience, and large bets when you get your opportunity.
If you are not entering a shoe until you have an advantage, that's a different kind of play and you have to take into account when you stop watching a shoe and start watching another one, or if you are able to backcount two shoes. Or if you are willing to backcount shoes that have already started. And if it's a small store where you usually have to wait a while for a new shuffle, that's a different kind of play still.
Even the worst games can be beaten with backcounting, patience, and large bets when you get your opportunity.
CP
We may be stupid and dumb eastern players to be playing 6 or the dreadful 8 deckers (that is all that is available within 250 miles), but I would say we have developed our AP skills to compensate, far above those who are fortunate to regularly play sd and dd games.
I can't see how you would need too much cover either spreading 1-3 or even 1-6u. Take on the big boys with the 1-16 or 1-20+ spreads.
Your game is just easier to beat, but will it earn you the same return before you burn it out or they burn you.
The SCORE of your game may be fantastic, but looking at the win rate/hr doesn't show it. Some players do choose to "wongit".
BJC
EDIT: I agree.
We may be stupid and dumb eastern players to be playing 6 or the dreadful 8 deckers (that is all that is available within 250 miles), but I would say we have developed our AP skills to compensate, far above those who are fortunate to regularly play sd and dd games.
I can't see how you would need too much cover either spreading 1-3 or even 1-6u. Take on the big boys with the 1-16 or 1-20+ spreads.
Your game is just easier to beat, but will it earn you the same return before you burn it out or they burn you.
The SCORE of your game may be fantastic, but looking at the win rate/hr doesn't show it. Some players do choose to "wongit".
BJC
EDIT: I agree.
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8 Decks and ASM's
CreepingPanther's stance that 8 deck shoes are a tough batch of cookies to try and eat is absolutely true. 8 decks adds to the casino's advantage and the only real way to go up against 8 decks is hardcore wonging in which you spend more time standing there than anything else, hardly playing a hand! At some point I am going to post about something I call "rubberband theory"--- How counts are effected by the number of decks, the conversion to TC and the speed at which a given count swings due to the number of decks. My "rubberband" theory sort of correlates these things together nicely in a general perspective.
ASM's. You love them? I hate them! ....and I am not a shuffle tracker by any stretch of the imagination. The idea is to add hands per hour lost by shuffling. Statistically though, dealers become fatigued more quickly with these things in use and slow down by "X" no. of hands per hour by the end of their shift... They hate them also! "Time and motion" issues arise here.
I know little about car racing but it poses the perfect comparison. You have a top-notch dragster car that always wins for the most part. You become so confident with your mega dragster car that you relax a bit and don't carefully evaluate all the little tweaks and maintenance so you can run it non-stop, never giving it any rest. You eventually notice your "stats" are dropping. That couple of minutes of shuffle time means a rest mentally, giving you time for a "pit stop". This is valuable!! The few minutes allows you allow your "engine" to cool and will increase your time at the table(s) before you are fatigued.
Let's add in the RFID chips and "mindplay" to the ASM. This little bit of modern technology tells a computer system EXACTLY what order the cards are in and knows card for card what the deck is comprised of. What's next? An automatic shuffler that stacks the deck in the favor of the house each and every shuffle? I have more trust in human shuffled cards than I do with a machine that hides the shuffle inside a box, just as many people do, even though I am unable to shuffle track.
Casinos are evolving and "inching forward" in adding all these things over the years because if they did them all at once they would upset a lot of people and lose business. They do not add these things and spend huge dollars on them because they are looking out for their customer base or trying to do anything beneficial to the player. They change and evolve and do what they can in order to gouge it out for ALL they can! Change it up too quickly and people will notice though. Have you ever heard of that frog in a pot of water on the stove thing? You toss a frog into hot to boiling water and he will jump right out. You place the same frog in comfortable, lukewarm water and begin raising the temperature slowly to a boil he will stay and meet his demise, not perceiving the gradual change as opposed to the rapid change. The casinos think of us as a bunch of frogs---They wish to boil us all up and have as few as possible jump out of the pot along the way.
If 30 years ago, Vegas casinos had automatic shufflers on 8 deckers in which 2 decks were cut off and the dealer hit soft17...uhm..NO ONE would have played that game. If casinos offered 6 to 5 payouts on some of ther blackjack games, it would have gone over like a lead balloon.
CreepingPanther's stance that 8 deck shoes are a tough batch of cookies to try and eat is absolutely true. 8 decks adds to the casino's advantage and the only real way to go up against 8 decks is hardcore wonging in which you spend more time standing there than anything else, hardly playing a hand! At some point I am going to post about something I call "rubberband theory"--- How counts are effected by the number of decks, the conversion to TC and the speed at which a given count swings due to the number of decks. My "rubberband" theory sort of correlates these things together nicely in a general perspective.
ASM's. You love them? I hate them! ....and I am not a shuffle tracker by any stretch of the imagination. The idea is to add hands per hour lost by shuffling. Statistically though, dealers become fatigued more quickly with these things in use and slow down by "X" no. of hands per hour by the end of their shift... They hate them also! "Time and motion" issues arise here.
I know little about car racing but it poses the perfect comparison. You have a top-notch dragster car that always wins for the most part. You become so confident with your mega dragster car that you relax a bit and don't carefully evaluate all the little tweaks and maintenance so you can run it non-stop, never giving it any rest. You eventually notice your "stats" are dropping. That couple of minutes of shuffle time means a rest mentally, giving you time for a "pit stop". This is valuable!! The few minutes allows you allow your "engine" to cool and will increase your time at the table(s) before you are fatigued.
Let's add in the RFID chips and "mindplay" to the ASM. This little bit of modern technology tells a computer system EXACTLY what order the cards are in and knows card for card what the deck is comprised of. What's next? An automatic shuffler that stacks the deck in the favor of the house each and every shuffle? I have more trust in human shuffled cards than I do with a machine that hides the shuffle inside a box, just as many people do, even though I am unable to shuffle track.
Casinos are evolving and "inching forward" in adding all these things over the years because if they did them all at once they would upset a lot of people and lose business. They do not add these things and spend huge dollars on them because they are looking out for their customer base or trying to do anything beneficial to the player. They change and evolve and do what they can in order to gouge it out for ALL they can! Change it up too quickly and people will notice though. Have you ever heard of that frog in a pot of water on the stove thing? You toss a frog into hot to boiling water and he will jump right out. You place the same frog in comfortable, lukewarm water and begin raising the temperature slowly to a boil he will stay and meet his demise, not perceiving the gradual change as opposed to the rapid change. The casinos think of us as a bunch of frogs---They wish to boil us all up and have as few as possible jump out of the pot along the way.
If 30 years ago, Vegas casinos had automatic shufflers on 8 deckers in which 2 decks were cut off and the dealer hit soft17...uhm..NO ONE would have played that game. If casinos offered 6 to 5 payouts on some of ther blackjack games, it would have gone over like a lead balloon.
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No one is questioning the fact that 8d is tougher, in fact I haven't lost once in my last 6 sessions against 8d games. Sit down at the beginning of a new shoe and if the count tanks below TC -2 or -3 get up and find a new table. I don't wong in and out nor do I backcount. It would probably help my bottom line if I did.
Don't call others dumb and stupid because you know only one way to play the game, the easy way. That will just leave you naked in the woods. There's more then one way to skin a cat and us easterners do it all the time.
BJC
Count
"Take on the big boys with the 1-16 or 1-20 spreads", what a silly statement, sounds like you need some heroes to worship.
"Develope your AP skills to compensate" Really....and how is that,?? overcome boredom, practice patience, become invisible so you do not look amazingly silly standing there watching others play:laugh:
I cut my teeth for many years on 6d, (far easier than face down games,) playing thousands of hours and marathon sessions, I know all about shoes. My max spread in the game I gave a figure on is 1 to 20 and at times, 1 to 40. That is not the only game I play, but the others are in that score range.
I never spoke of 6d games.
The idea is to play to WIN, and you will WIN far more and far easier in a better game than 8 deckers. Play To Win, be a Stalking Predator, I am, and I STALK.... far and wide in very hostile environments.
Some say they play what is "available", a drug addict will take whatever *drug* is "available". Take care to contemplate what your real status is.
I do wish you the best.
CP
"Take on the big boys with the 1-16 or 1-20 spreads", what a silly statement, sounds like you need some heroes to worship.
"Develope your AP skills to compensate" Really....and how is that,?? overcome boredom, practice patience, become invisible so you do not look amazingly silly standing there watching others play:laugh:
I cut my teeth for many years on 6d, (far easier than face down games,) playing thousands of hours and marathon sessions, I know all about shoes. My max spread in the game I gave a figure on is 1 to 20 and at times, 1 to 40. That is not the only game I play, but the others are in that score range.
I never spoke of 6d games.
The idea is to play to WIN, and you will WIN far more and far easier in a better game than
8 deckers. Play To Win, be a Stalking Predator, I am, and I STALK.... far and wide in very hostile environments.Some say they play what is "available", a drug addict will take whatever *drug* is "available". Take care to contemplate what your real status is.
I do wish you the best.
CP