I lied

[callipygian]

the only real way to go up against 8 decks is hardcore wonging in which you spend more time standing there than anything else, hardly playing a hand!

Anyone who thinks Wonging is about standing around waiting for a count to go up really shouldn't be commenting on Wonging. It's like people saying that you can't count cards because you can't memorize each card - if you think card counting is about memorizing each card, you're doing it wrong.

Or to continue the car racing analogy, it's like commenting on how a drag racer can out-accelerate a stock car on a 1/4 mile strip and therefore stock cars are inferior. While it is true that if you used a stock car in such a race, it would get crushed, there are other races in which a stock car would cream a dragster - you're not driving the stock car under the conditions it was built for.

 

[bjcount]

"Take on the big boys with the 1-16 or 1-20 spreads", what a silly statement, sounds like you need some heroes to worship.

Meaning 8 deckers.

"Develope your AP skills to compensate" Really....and how is that,?? overcome boredom, practice patience, become invisible so you do not look amazingly silly standing there watching others play:laugh:

LOL

I cut my teeth for many years on 6d, (far easier than face down games,) playing thousands of hours and marathon sessions, I know all about shoes. My max spread in the game I gave a figure on is 1 to 20 and at times, 1 to 40. That is not the only game I play, but the others are in that score range.

I never spoke of 6d games.

I agree with you that 6d is better then 8d, but there are some decent 8d games out there if you look (6.75/8, 7/8) which bring in decent results. That is why I posted sims for comparison purposes.

The idea is to play to WIN, and you will WIN far more and far easier in a better game than 8 deckers. Play To Win, be a Stalking Predator, I am, and I STALK.... far and wide in very hostile environments.

Agreed again, you will win easier in a better game. 8 deckers are tough, but a good game can also be beat.

I do wish you the best.

Back at you CP...

! Aces and Chiefs !

BJC

 

[EasyRhino]

That couple of minutes of shuffle time means a rest mentally, giving you time for a "pit stop". This is valuable!! The few minutes allows you allow your "engine" to cool and will increase your time at the table(s) before you are fatigued.

Conversely, I've heard dealers complain that hand shuffles (especially of giant shoes) can be tiring on the hands and forearms.

 

[Tarzan]

The "Tried and Proven"

Callipygian, perhaps you know something I don't... perhaps you could clarify what this insight is beyond a terse criticism of my stating that long term positive results playing against an 8 deck shoe are achieved through selective play and wonging that often involves standing around a lot longer than you would against fewer decks. I know a lot about how much time I have spent watching instead of playing when it comes to 8 decks in action and the amount of time you can spend waiting for a reasonable TC. One thing is that I avoid playing against 8 decks to begin with! Those are the only circumstances I WILL play against them is to catch a reasonable TC far enough back to zip in for a hit and run, otherwise I find it a waste of time to play.

Don't just throw something out there without explanation --- Clarify! Elaborate! WHY am I flawed in my attack of the 8 deckers (on the rare occasion that I would bother with such an abomination). Do you jump in there and slug it out against 8 decks, playing every hand with any long term, positive result?

Stock car drag car 1/8 mile 3/7 mile what huh? What is your point there??? You lost me. Obviously my feeble brain is not only incapable of telling the general public that an 8 decker is a spiffy game to play but I have no sense of car stuff (which I admitted in the post). I was merely talking of the chance to relax the brain and thought processes and using the sports car thing for comparison's sake. Run a race horse non-stop without a break and he gains less distance sort of thing...I should have used a horse as comparison! Then again, you might have brought up that an arabian running a half mile as opposed to a clydesdale trotting 3/4 mile blah blah blah...(Sorry, I couldn't help it in throwing that in).

I looked at what you wrote there and tried to understand how the different car thing was relevant. To use another comparison that becomes even more weird and abstract, it's as if I was talking about the possibility of the oranges in the orange grove freezing and your argument to this is that there is more vitamin B in the apples in the apple orchard that is 800 miles away.

I simply refuse to advocate to the general public that an 8 decker is a good game. Add in the H17 rule and I call anyone who plays it foolish when better games exist right around the corner. Why play it if better games exist? Is it because you welcome a true challenge? Just about a week ago, I was strolling through an AC casino on a weekend with someone and they pointed out to me, "See that woman playing heads up at that table at a $100 minimum against 8 decks?" Right away I knew what they were about to say because I have seen it before. It was the weekend so all the minimums go up. What is normally 25-50 becomes 50-100 min. out on the main floor. The thing is that the woman could have been playing in the pit against 6 decks with better penetration a whole 20 meters away from where she was for a $100 min. Yet, she was playing at $100 minimum against 8 decks and I'm not sure but I think ALSO with H17 rule!

Please allow me to go back to the car thing for a moment, even though I know nothing about race cars. At least I understand some basic physics! You have a group of the EXACT SAME kind of race cars, doing the EXACT SAME sort of race. The only difference is that one of the race cars has a 1000 kg block of lead in the backseat. Would you elect to race this car anyway because, "It's more of a challenge"? Would you avoid taking the lead laden car and perhaps also take addition steps as neccessary to hedge up your advantage?

 

[callipygian]

my stating that long term positive results playing against an 8 deck shoe are achieved through selective play and wonging that often involves standing around a lot longer than you would against fewer decks

Actually, you stated only the first part - that you just stand around, "hardly playing a hand". I fully agree with what you stated just now, that you're waiting around longer than a DD or even 4D game. The benefit, of course, is that once you do sit down, you sit down longer than you would in a DD or 4D game.

Nevertheless, the overall point is that because Wongable 6D and 8D games are more plentiful, it's not entirely apparent whether it's better to play an incredible, but unique, game (which will drive up travel costs for most people and limit the total number of hours you play), or whether it's better to play a mediocre, but common, game.

As for what people generally miss about Wonging, my general point is that hands/hr is often ignored in favor of EV. Hands/hr ends up being absolutely crucial in a proper evaluation of Wonging, so it should be treated carefully.

As Automatic Monkey pointed out earlier, Wonging out and jumping to a table with a fresh shuffle requires minimal waiting (if the casino has a lot of similar games), and hand/hr can be as high as any other table.

Wonging in is a little trickier, both in terms of execution and in terms of math. EV increases with the Wong in point, but hands/hr drops pretty fast. There's a bubble in which the optimal Wong-in point is +1 or +2, depending on exact conditions. Most people either don't Wong in (and end up playing a lot of neutral counts) or Wong in really high (which is great for EV, but, as you pointed out, not good on win rate).

Here's an underappreciated point: looking for a TC of +1 isn't that hard at all. As a matter of fact, on a 6D game with 3-4 people at the table, it's pretty easy to see a TC of +1 on the table - the challenge is to find a freshly shuffled shoe so you have decent penetration, not to find a positive TC.

The other point which I think people often miss is that, for optimal win rate, you need to Wong out at a point lower than you Wong in. Otherwise, the time that you spend sitting down and buying in actually ends up being significant compared with the number of hands you play.

 

[Tarzan]

Hands per hour lost

You're right about the fine line that exists in hands per hour and potential loss of EV in wonging practices. A crowded casino that offers little in the way of migratory habits can be disheartening. I will move to another casino rather than play poor conditions though... I will not play at all rather than playing poor conditions!

My situation is different than some other people's though. I live next to all the casinos. I play full time. I can pick and choose my playtimes, casinos and schedule my play to be to the most advantageous scheduling. My time is my own and I have no finite timeframe to play in.

It's also quite true about once you are on it you are there a bit longer but as a rule I will only do a quick hit and run with a bunch of yahoos at an 8 decker. The 8 deck tables with lower stakes often have more players than I wish to play with and LESS hands per hour with this being the case. Cards get burned up quickly with a full table, warranting a hit and run tactic. I will not stick around because there are better opportunites out there.

 

[Blue Efficacy]

So in summary, the 8 Deck game near my house that cuts off sometimes little more than half a deck isn't worth playing. Gotcha.

 

[Tarzan]

Count me in on that particular 8 decker, Blue

The subject matter of this thread has strayed off the subject and deviated from casino's evolving practices, procedures and rules over the years that hurt and hinder not only themselves but the players to... evaluating what is kinda sorta maybe okayish on the players part and specific good better best scenarios for the players, etc... specific play in today's current conditions.

The original subject matter of actions on the part of casinos over the years is swept under the rug and now the thread is suddenly focusing on player related things and the mincing of words for arguments sake?

Okay---Time to alter the direction of this back by adding the question:
"Hypothetically speaking, if you had a time machine and could go back to Vegas 30-40 years ago, sending a clone of yourself and you both have identical bankrolls, who would make more money in an identical amount of time?"

I would venture to say I would triple if not quadruple my income with the much better penetration, rules, etc. What I am saying is that the casinos slowly have evolved (attempting) to put out the greatest edge for themselves (although this has backfired for them according to Bill Zender's report) and are willing to push it as far as they can get away with. If there are people willing enough to play 6 to 5 blackjack they are damn sure going to offer it! How would this whole 6 to 5 blackjack thing have gone over 30 years ago?? It WOULDN'T have. 30 years ago many Vegas casinos offered 2 to 1 blackjack payouts!

Maybe another question, such as: "If casinos 30 years ago suddenly changed to CSM'S, ASM's, limited penetration, rules changes to include H17, 6 to 5 payouts and all the conditions of typical blackjack games today suddenly and out of nowhere in a very short period of time, how do you think that players in general would react to it?"

Frogs jumping out of the pot! is my answer...it would go over like a lead balloon. Vegas would have had lots of empty tables and dealers twiddling their thumbs.

This thread has changed direction from the altering and changing of the game on the part of the casinos to less "player favorable" conditions to a matter of "Gee, that's not really so bad....after all I play it!" sort of thread where we all get to hash out what is playable. Can we digress further and in 20 more years be hashing out what is most playable of the 6to5 blackjack shoe games and perhaps look at those 10:1 roulette wheel payouts that only have two zeros and no "triple zero"?

Blue, the 1/2 deck cut off the shoe does not exist in AC and feel free to private message me where that game is and I will make it a point to travel that way. Heck that works with 8 decks even BETTER due to the possibilities of the counts you can end up with at the end of THAT puppy!

Once again, I stand on not being able to advocate to the general public that an 8 decker with poor penetration and H17 is a playable game. I will even be so bold as to say that 6 to 5 blackjack is not a playable game!

 

[johndoe]

Once again, I stand on not being able to advocate to the general public that an 8 decker with poor penetration and H17 is a playable game. I will even be so bold as to say that 6 to 5 blackjack is not a playable game!

Well, that's true enough, but I'd even say that a 6 deck, 4 deck, DD or even SD game with *poor penetration* is also not playable. I don't know why 8D is somehow special or you folks are so obsessed with it. There are plenty of 8D games much better than vegas standard 6D.

Pen rules all.

 

[creeping panther]

John

Well, that's true enough, but I'd even say that a 6 deck, 4 deck, DD or even SD game with *poor penetration* is also not playable. I don't know why 8D is somehow special or you folks are so obsessed with it. There are plenty of 8D games much better than vegas standard 6D.

Pen rules all.

You just used 2 words that should be avoided at all costs when posting on a public forum

I would suggest in the future everyone refrain from the use of it.

CP

 

[johndoe]

What are you talking about?

 

[Automatic Monkey]

...Once again, I stand on not being able to advocate to the general public that an 8 decker with poor penetration and H17 is a playable game. I will even be so bold as to say that 6 to 5 blackjack is not a playable game!

To the general public the pen and the number of decks doesn't really matter, and the way most of them play the H17 vs. S17 doesn't even matter. Most ploppies play closer to a H17 than S17 strategy anyway.

There's an old joke: An executive has 3 secretaries and one promotion to dole out. One day he leaves $1000 cash on the desk of each one of them. The first one returns it to him. The second one invests it in the market and turns it into $2000. The third one keeps the money for herself. Which one gets the promotion? The one with the biggest tits, of course!

When having to choose between a 6D game and an 8D game, play the one with the better pen (same thing as big tits). If they both have equal pen... go find a game with better pen. Barring that, play the one that you can backcount or that has a faster dealer, because all of these things have a larger effect on your profit than reducing an 8D shoe to 6D. Sorry, that's just the math.

 

[Blue Efficacy]

What are you talking about?

Maybe he thinks it's a secret to the casinos that bad pen makes a game unplayable to AP? If not, I am unsure what he is talking about.

 

[johndoe]

Maybe he thinks it's a secret to the casinos that bad pen makes a game unplayable to AP? If not, I am unsure what he is talking about.

That's kind of what I figured, but that's hardly a secret. And I couldn't tell what the "two words" were. "Bad pen"?

 

[creeping panther]

Hmmm

That's kind of what I figured, but that's hardly a secret. And I couldn't tell what the "two words" were. "Bad pen"?

Come on guys, think about it, I know you are all smarter than that.

Do you know who reads these forums?

More than just AP's. Out of sight, out of mind.

CP

 

[Blue Efficacy]

Remember bad pen costs casinos lots of money.

 

[1357111317]

On the subject of playing bad games, as an AP you have to play with the cards you are dealt. If you can play with a decent advantage on a 8 deck and don't have any other games to play then why not? An AP has to adapt to its surroundings. I play a 6D H17 with 75% pen and manage to play with an advantage probably equal if not more than most people on here. I say if you can play with an advantage then why not?

 

[Blue Efficacy]

Exactly, there are many aspects of a game that may be less tangible that can turn a bad game into a good game. Sloppy dealers, weak shuffles, good pen, great comps can all make a game that looks unplayable on paper very beatable. 6-8D H17 does not automatically make a game poor or even mediocre. Although it seems a certain large feline would not even play 8D H17 if the dealer flashed his hole card every time And regarding what prime numbers said, adapting to one's surroundings is one of the most important trait of the successful predator. That beats starving trying to migrate to an area with weaker and/or more plentiful prey.

 

[itrack]

I also agree

It's funny you talk about seeing the dealers hole card on a bad game. One day I noticed a dealer that was extremely careless with her hole cards, so I sat down to play and see if I could get a better look. I ended up seeing every single hole card she took, and needless to say, it was the best game of my (short) life. The best part was, it was a CSM table.

 

[Blue Efficacy]

See, CSM games are beatable too! I know some of you will think I am wasting my time, but i'll even scout 6:5 blackjack tables for flashing dealers.