I need tips on how I can play for income. (long post with info)

[kingofallmen1]

Hi! I just joined the forum. I am excited to finally have a place where I can go to actually talk to some people who know how to play blackjack. I have a question for all of you.

I have access to about 10 casinos. I want to play blackjack professionally on a part-time basis as a second source of small income. I started counting cards about 1 year ago, and I practiced with a friend. I developed my own basic strategy and indices, and I mastered my play on computer before I ever went to the casino. My friend and I started playing as we could, and in about 5 months we had found ourselves winning consistent. We, however, were not betting over $100. Our bet was from $15-$100. After 5 months we found ourselves up about $10,000.

We then went to Fitzgerald's casino one afternoon and after we had been playing for about 2 hours, we were told we could play other games but we were not allowed to play blackjack. We then went to another casino, and my friend saw his picture being printed out on a printer as I sat down at a table.

I did not know that casinos would not let good players play. I have heard stories of this happening with players that win, period, even at other games, but I was green to this fact. This brings me to my question. After I ask this question, you should also read the information, which I have acquired through a former security person that worked the camera systems at several casinos.

What suggestions would you have for me if I wanted to play at a casino 1 day per week, and be able to play? I am only looking for a secondary income of about $1,000 per month. What tips or information can you provide that will be helpful if I wanted to do this over the long-term? I am looking at this as something to do for many years to come.

I will also tell you that I have changed my betting method, but I do not want to post it on this site, because I am sure that casino personnel have been to this website to gather information. I have been informed of this and you should know it.

Now that I have my question out of the way, I want to share with you some insider information that I have found. The pit bosses are there to do a few things, but one of their primary jobs is to insure that you lose. During the first 30 minutes of your play, several things are logged including your average bet and what you buy in for. The pit boss is also responsible for keeping up with how much you lose, and/or if you lose at all. He will sometimes ask the dealers to help him with this process.

The phone systems that you see used behind the tables as you play are used to communicate with security personnel primarily. The dealers are trained to look for certain events at a table and report these events to a pit boss if they are witnessed. These include things like grabbing chips after play, and if the players ask to see other players' cards in a pitch game. They are also taught to to be informants if they suspect 'team play' at their table.

In short, to the casino, you really are the enemy. You can only play if you lose. They can't come out and tell you this, because then the drunk show-offs that lose would never set foot in them. They have to pretend that you are welcome and put up a front, but this should not deceive a keen eye.

Any help or tips you can provide would be greatly appreciated. Also, I wish there was a way we could prevent casino employees from coming here. I will post more on this later.

 

[EasyRhino]

Reno?

$15-$100 is a 6.6x spread. Which is kind of aggressive for a single deck game. If you're playing a place regularly, expect to get backed off like you did.

If you're playing shoes, on the other hand, it will probably only give you a break even game... you need to spread much bigger.

Playing at a place once a week isn't too big a deal, you wouldn't "burn it out" too quickly. Most places, anyway.

However, expected winnings for a spread like above would be maybe $20-$25 per hour. So if you want to make $1000 per month, you're 40-50 hours per month of play (not counting travel time). That's the hard part. That and the huge variance of trying to reduce risk of ruin to an acceptable level

 

[kingofallmen1]

I have changed my betting strategy

I did mention that I have changed my betting strategy. We were also optimizing our wins in $200 increments, so it was going well. We can usually find a double-deck game.

 

[kingofallmen1]

Thanks for the once per week tip

What is this 'once per week' data based on? Is this based on personal experience?

 

[shadroch]

Take a part-time job at your local Papa Johns. Pays better and less stressful.

 

[EasyRhino]

I own stock in Papa John's, and I'm not so sure if he'll pass my interview process.

I did mention that I have changed my betting strategy. We were also optimizing our wins in $200 increments, so it was going well. We can usually find a double-deck game.

This sounds suspiciously like a voodoo betting strategy. If you're betting anywhere near the 15-100 range, you going to have swings much smaller (edit: LARGER, much LARGER) than $200

If you're betting smaller, you're not going to have any meaningful dollar expectations. Just enjoy the free drinks.

This assumes it's not voodoo.

 

[Sonny]

This sounds suspiciously like a voodoo betting strategy.

I feel a little uneasy about it too. Maybe we’ll feel better if we can get some more details. Maybe some more background info about King would be helpful too.

King, what system are you using? You mentioned that you developed your own basic strategy and indices. What changes did you make? How is your system different than the standard ones? Did you use any simulator software to compare your system to others? What were the results?

Our bet was from $15-$100. After 5 months we found ourselves up about $10,000.

It sounds like you either played about 80 hours per month or you were lucky. How many hours did you play over that period? How do your results compare to your EV? Were you and your partner playing at the same table or at different tables? What kind of risk of ruin are you guys playing with? What were the game rules and penetration?

I did not know that casinos would not let good players play.

I think that’s covered in just about any card counting book. Which books have you read so far? What authors you do you like the most? What other systems have you looked at? Do you prefer balanced or unbalanced systems?

What suggestions would you have for me if I wanted to play at a casino 1 day per week, and be able to play?

That’s pretty easy. Just play a different shift each week and you won’t see the same employees for three weeks at a time. Adjust your strategy for whatever conditions you find on each shift. You can get away with a lot in a crowded pit, and there are lots of ways to keep them busy. It also helps to play in someone else's shadow or to have your partner turn the pit at crucial times. If you plan on being rated then you will need to manufacture losses on your account as well. There are a few good books will give you advice about staying under the radar. Probably the best to start with are Burning the Tales in Las Vegas and Card Counter’s Guide to Casino Surveillance.

The pit bosses are there to do a few things, but one of their primary jobs is to insure that you lose. During the first 30 minutes of your play, several things are logged including your average bet and what you buy in for. The pit boss is also responsible for keeping up with how much you lose, and/or if you lose at all. He will sometimes ask the dealers to help him with this process.

There are other reason for pit bosses to do all of those things. Their job involves a lot of clerical work that they have to keep updated and organized. Most of it is not related to game protection in any way. A lot of new players get very paranoid when they play in casinos. They assume that every phone call is about them, every visit from a floorman is a stakeout and that the dealer is on to them every time they make a standard call out to the pit. It’s always good to be attentive, but don’t start using too much camouflage just yet. It's usually better to play aggressively and smart than weakly and assume you are safe.

-Sonny-

 

[Bojack1]

Hi! I just joined the forum. I am excited to finally have a place where I can go to actually talk to some people who know how to play blackjack. I have a question for all of you.

I have access to about 10 casinos. I want to play blackjack professionally on a part-time basis as a second source of small income. I started counting cards about 1 year ago, and I practiced with a friend. I developed my own basic strategy and indices, and I mastered my play on computer before I ever went to the casino. My friend and I started playing as we could, and in about 5 months we had found ourselves winning consistent. We, however, were not betting over $100. Our bet was from $15-$100. After 5 months we found ourselves up about $10,000.

We then went to Fitzgerald's casino one afternoon and after we had been playing for about 2 hours, we were told we could play other games but we were not allowed to play blackjack. We then went to another casino, and my friend saw his picture being printed out on a printer as I sat down at a table.

I did not know that casinos would not let good players play. I have heard stories of this happening with players that win, period, even at other games, but I was green to this fact. This brings me to my question. After I ask this question, you should also read the information, which I have acquired through a former security person that worked the camera systems at several casinos.

What suggestions would you have for me if I wanted to play at a casino 1 day per week, and be able to play? I am only looking for a secondary income of about $1,000 per month. What tips or information can you provide that will be helpful if I wanted to do this over the long-term? I am looking at this as something to do for many years to come.

I will also tell you that I have changed my betting method, but I do not want to post it on this site, because I am sure that casino personnel have been to this website to gather information. I have been informed of this and you should know it.

Now that I have my question out of the way, I want to share with you some insider information that I have found. The pit bosses are there to do a few things, but one of their primary jobs is to insure that you lose. During the first 30 minutes of your play, several things are logged including your average bet and what you buy in for. The pit boss is also responsible for keeping up with how much you lose, and/or if you lose at all. He will sometimes ask the dealers to help him with this process.

The phone systems that you see used behind the tables as you play are used to communicate with security personnel primarily. The dealers are trained to look for certain events at a table and report these events to a pit boss if they are witnessed. These include things like grabbing chips after play, and if the players ask to see other players' cards in a pitch game. They are also taught to to be informants if they suspect 'team play' at their table.

In short, to the casino, you really are the enemy. You can only play if you lose. They can't come out and tell you this, because then the drunk show-offs that lose would never set foot in them. They have to pretend that you are welcome and put up a front, but this should not deceive a keen eye.

Any help or tips you can provide would be greatly appreciated. Also, I wish there was a way we could prevent casino employees from coming here. I will post more on this later.

The best tip I can give you is do not look at blackjack as a source of income look at it as an investment. It takes more money and playing time then most can allow, as well as a few tricks to change this game from investment to income regardless of how much you want to make per month. And if you have wandered off into voodoo betting schemes and an unproven basic strategy, well then you can write off your chances of any positive expectation whether it be investment or income as well.

 

[kingofallmen1]

My reply to the posts so far

Wow! LOL... I thought you guys would be trying to give me pointers on how to insure long-term success instead of making insulting remarks. Anyway, I do computer work (hardware) for a living. The new betting strategy, which I personally invented based on information is still in experimentation, but at this point looks very promising. If you guys think that the primary thing that would allow me to play longer is the way I bet, I don't mind disclosing all the details. Also, we did not get lucky in the way we won. Me and the guy I play with do not play a strategy that I have seen anywhere. It truly is something I originated over the course of about a year and about 1 billion hands of simulated blackjack, literally.

I will also tell you that the dealers and security personnel do NOT care how one plays, but more-so how they bet, hence the reason for me changing my betting strategy.

My friend was playing at a table with 5 people. He said the tc jumped to a +9 after the 1st hand. It was the first hand of the shoe and his bet went from $15 to $100 throughout the rest of the shoe. This is what tipped off the chicken hawk, and we were asked to leave. By the way, Pit Bosses from this day forward on any of my posts will be referred to as chicken hawks. Chicken Hawks can't get real jobs like delivering pizza for Papa Johns so they work for unfair, greedy, and questionably dishonest casinos instead.

Now, lets have a discussion about how I (and all of you) can play over the long haul. Don't you worry about me winning. It'll happen...

 

[kingofallmen1]

Thank you for the suggestion of the books

Thanks for suggesting the two books. I will go buy them this weekend, if I can find them locally. If not, I will order them online. Good info!

 

[kingofallmen1]

EasyRhino

Hey easyrhino, I guess, since one can't express emotions in typing or chatting that you could have taken my question as being a smart-ass. I wasn't. I was seriously wondering if you had maybe played that way for a long period or if someone you knew played it. So, since I failed the interview to deliver pizza, how often should I visit each casino and I guess I should visit them 8 hours difference in time each time, correct?

*orders a pizza and waits on the reply*

 

[squeeks]

King

I for one would like for you to tell your betting strategy, pm if you perfer.

 

[standard toaster]

Wow! LOL... I thought you guys would be trying to give me pointers on how to insure long-term success instead of making insulting remarks. Anyway, I do computer work (hardware) for a living. The new betting strategy, which I personally invented based on information is still in experimentation, but at this point looks very promising. If you guys think that the primary thing that would allow me to play longer is the way I bet, I don't mind disclosing all the details. Also, we did not get lucky in the way we won. Me and the guy I play with do not play a strategy that I have seen anywhere. It truly is something I originated over the course of about a year and about 1 billion hands of simulated blackjack, literally.

I will also tell you that the dealers and security personnel do NOT care how one plays, but more-so how they bet, hence the reason for me changing my betting strategy.

My friend was playing at a table with 5 people. He said the tc jumped to a +9 after the 1st hand. It was the first hand of the shoe and his bet went from $15 to $100 throughout the rest of the shoe. This is what tipped off the chicken hawk, and we were asked to leave. By the way, Pit Bosses from this day forward on any of my posts will be referred to as chicken hawks. Chicken Hawks can't get real jobs like delivering pizza for Papa Johns so they work for unfair, greedy, and questionably dishonest casinos instead.

Now, lets have a discussion about how I (and all of you) can play over the long haul. Don't you worry about me winning. It'll happen...


Now that I have my question out of the way, I want to share with you some insider information that I have found. The pit bosses are there to do a few things, but one of their primary jobs is to insure that you lose. During the first 30 minutes of your play, several things are logged including your average bet and what you buy in for. The pit boss is also responsible for keeping up with how much you lose, and/or if you lose at all. He will sometimes ask the dealers to help him with this process.

The phone systems that you see used behind the tables as you play are used to communicate with security personnel primarily. The dealers are trained to look for certain events at a table and report these events to a pit boss if they are witnessed. These include things like grabbing chips after play, and if the players ask to see other players' cards in a pitch game. They are also taught to to be informants if they suspect 'team play' at their table.

In short, to the casino, you really are the enemy. You can only play if you lose. They can't come out and tell you this, because then the drunk show-offs that lose would never set foot in them. They have to pretend that you are welcome and put up a front, but this should not deceive a keen eye.

Seriously i am not trying to be an asshole here but here it goes... i do not know anything about you and or your strategy... no one was trying to insult you but it seems like the only thing you can possibly be doing is a voodoo strategy.. if you come up with a new strategy that wins in the long run i will bow down to you on my hands and knees... with that said it seems as if that last post was very cocky and uncalled for. We do not need someone comming into the forum saying this is how it will be, i will reffer to them as chicken hawks because they cant get a real poppa johns job, and spewing out random information about what the pit cares about... alot of the information you are giving us is also found easily in the FAQ at the top of the page and throughout every open post... we know how rating works and that the pit is there to win the house money, it a busniess... in reality the bet size and spread is something that the pit catches quickly but they care about the style as well. It seems as if you feel you are superior to everyone in the forum and you very well may be but please show me why or explain how you believe this is true

again im not trying to be a dick

hopefully im not the only one who feels this way


anyway are your billion hands of simulation computer based or by flipping cards over the course of the year?
also how long have you been playing? i found it kind of hard to believe that a counter did not know you could get barred from playing at a casino

 

[Kasi]

Now, lets have a discussion about how I (and all of you) can play over the long haul. Don't you worry about me winning. It'll happen...

I don't think anyone was really ragging on you lol - just that, while such a simplistic question, "how can I play once a week and make $1K/month", the answer can depend on alot of things. All the usual stuff, game, count, spread risk roll style of play etc.

More or less, best is to play when you know what to expect from what you are doing kind of thing. That's why people asked about prior results.

If you got your own original stuff, a billion round sim and aren't worried about winning, what exactly are you worried about Does it have frequencies, advantages and stan dev at different counts?

How's this - spread $100-$800 in a 70/104 H17 DAS LS game with a $100K roll and only play once a month for 3 hours? If you don't like that how about $100-$400 and play 6 hours. If you can play 40/hrs/month I guess anything making $25/hr will do. Problem solved lol. If you can make $25/hr, maybe making $50K/ year would be a thought lol.

You see the problem lol?

I have no idea what you mean by optimizing wins in $200 increments.

Even though you're a computer programmer, why re-invent the wheel? Maybe consider buying a sim after you buy the books? Could be time and money well spent as opposed to betting with a little voice in the back of your mind always asking "Was I lucky/good, just lucky, unlucky but good, or just unlucky" lol.

Don't feel bad - it's always the same question.

 

[FLASH1296]

hints appreciated

The issue at hand has become what is it that you are claiming you do that is unusual?

Just a hint or two would be appreciated, in order for you to gain some respect here. Being cryptic is sometimes warranted - but rarely for a forum newbie.

Are you aware that you have already revealed what your home base is - via the content of your post ?

Some of us, like myself, have been playing professionally for many years. I haven't had to file a 1030 since 1992. I am able to live a comfortable life style and have no debts, including mortgages.

Some of us, are very much newbies who are trying to gain the knowledge with which they can develop their skills.

I imagine that you are somewhere in-between.

Some of us, like myself, have graduate degrees and are very familiar with issues of statistics, probability, etc.

You are, to a degree, being "vetted" by us.

I assume you want to be accepted here as a serious player, and many of us are drawing the inference that you are a "Voodoo Player"

We would MUCH rather be completely wrong.

Help us to help you, and gain a measure of respect in the process.

Simply clarify what is so unusual, or different, or unorthodox, or groundbreaking, about your play.

 

[kingofallmen1]

I will start with the books.

My method of play and betting was simulated and fine-tuned on a computer for about 1 year. It then took me 90 days to master the play. One year three months. My question in this forum was not HOW to win money. I am assuming most of you already know how to do this. This assumption alone should overshadow any arrogance factor that could be perceived. My advantage player blackjack experience is now only 2 years-- 1.25 years of of development, 0.5 years of play, and now 0.25 years of revampment of my betting.

Before I go to the casinos this time, I want to be a little more prepared on what to look for. Since we were not betting a lot of money, and since our wins were consistent and small, I didn't think the casinos would give a damn. I was wrong in this assumption.

I will check out the books already mentioned here. Also, this new betting strategy has not been perfected and will not be completed until the 1st of the year (at least we hope). We will have to practice a couple of weeks before actually playing too.

Again, I didn't come here to really talk strategy and all that stuff initially, because I don't think that is my weakness.

Since I am new to this site, I thought I would jump right to asking a question, instead of spending a week or so going through posts, etc.

If that seems arrogant to some, so be it.

 

[kingofallmen1]

My question was not how do I play 1 day per week.

My question AGAIN was NOT how do I play one day per week and make any amount of money. I stated this as a goal. I have played blackjack for about 10 years as a loser, about 2 years as an advantage player.

My question was, can you provide me with some tips on what to look for or style of play or any other information that would allow me to play with longevity?

Thats the question. Can some of you seasoned guys help me out with some info? I would even be willing to let you call me or email me or whatever you wanted. All I'm interested in is this discussion is more things to look for, how do I know when I'm watched, all this. If you think I should read some books or check out some links, what are they? Information Information Information.

I was also being a little lazy in just coming out and asking instead of digging through all the posts. I have already read a couple of interviews here on the site and that info has been great.

 

[standard toaster]

My question in this forum was not HOW to win money.

I dont really understand how tips on how you can play for income is different then tips on how to make money

anyway i dont think we can answer your question without more infor your basic strategy or betting pattern

 

[standard toaster]

Well heat is soemthing you begin to feel when the pit is constantly eyeing you or monitoring your play. The phone ringing, little meetings or anythign out of the ordinary.

 

[kingofallmen1]

Flash1296

Thanks for your reply Flash1296. Now we are getting somewhere and I compltetely understand the 'vetting' part.

I will give you all two moves that probably none of you play, but its mathematically better to make them IF you count the way I count.

If the tc is <=-4 you should NOT double down when you have an eleven and the dealer shows a 6. I'm not going to argue about it, I'm just trying to let you know.

If the tc =>2 you should double eleven against an ace, otherwise hit it.

LOL...This is based on double deck rules.

umm... what else? LOL