I now have time and money to count again

[itakeyourmoney]

I posted on here last year about this time when I was beginning to count, but I had to stop due to not having the necessary free time or bankroll. I'm now out of school and can meet both the time and financial requirements for card counting, and I want to make sure that I start out the right way.

My local casino offers the current game:

$10 min-$199 max
late surrender
70-80% pen
6 deck
dealer hits soft 17
das and double any two
split aces three times

$5 tables are also available but without surrender.


My current spread is (with $10 units):

+0: 1 unit
+1: 1 unit
+2: 2 units
+3: 4 units
+4: 8 units
+5 or more: 16 units

[When going with friends my plan is to simply piggyback their bets. That is, say the count is +2 and they plan to bet $10, I'll have them throw an extra $20 on for me: if they win, I make $20; if they lose, I pay them back $20 later. Basically it allows me to wong-in/out at any time. (Likely this "piggybacking" will be done on $5 tables.)]

I'm using the standard Hi-Lo count with the I-18 index (wonging out at TC= -2), and am currently practicing on Casino Verite with the above setup.

I was hoping someone would be able to tell me what kind of total bankroll I'm looking at to avoid going broke, and is it possible to start playing without the full bankroll. That is, say I need a total BR of $20,000 but currently only have $2,000 -- could I start playing now while I save up the rest?

To simplify, I'll list my main questions:

1. Is the $10 game substantially better than the $5 game (same rules but without surrender) -- I'd like to play the $5 table as it would allow my bankroll to be smaller, which would be nice in the beginning, but I don't want to sacrifice a large relative advantage.

2. Is there a more preferable spread?

3. Should I log a certain number of hours on CV before heading to the casino, or a certain number of hours backcounting (either alone or while my friends play) at casinos before sitting down to play? (I plan on having my deck counting down to under 25 seconds before playing.)

4. Is the "piggybacking" (if there is a more technical term please let me know) mentioned above, which will likely be on the $5 tables, better than playing by myself at a $10 table?

5. I have Professional Blackjack by Stanford Wong. Are there any other books you guys would recommend?

Thanks in advance (and let me know if there is any needed information that I forgot to provide).

 

[rukus]

see my answers below in CAPS

I posted on here last year about this time when I was beginning to count, but I had to stop due to not having the necessary free time or bankroll. I'm now out of school and can meet both the time and financial requirements for card counting, and I want to make sure that I start out the right way.

My local casino offers the current game:

$10 min-$199 max
late surrender
70-80% pen
6 deck
dealer hits soft 17
das and double any two
split aces three times

$5 tables are also available but without surrender.


My current spread is (with $10 units):

+0: 1 unit
+1: 1 unit
+2: 2 units
+3: 4 units
+4: 8 units
+5 or more: 16 units

[When going with friends my plan is to simply piggyback their bets. That is, say the count is +2 and they plan to bet $10, I'll have them throw an extra $20 on for me: if they win, I make $20; if they lose, I pay them back $20 later. Basically it allows me to wong-in/out at any time. (Likely this "piggybacking" will be done on $5 tables.)]

I'm using the standard Hi-Lo count with the I-18 index (wonging out at TC= -2), and am currently practicing on Casino Verite with the above setup.

I was hoping someone would be able to tell me what kind of total bankroll I'm looking at to avoid going broke, and is it possible to start playing without the full bankroll. That is, say I need a total BR of $20,000 but currently only have $2,000 -- could I start playing now while I save up the rest?
>> YOU LIKELY NEED ABOUT 8-10K FOR YOUR BANKROLL, BUT THAT IS COMPLETELY DEPENDENT ON HOW AGGRESSIVELY YOU WONG AND WHAT KIND OF RISK OF RUIN YOU ARE LOOKING TO MAINTAIN.

YES YOU CAN START PLAYING RIGHT AWAY, BUT JUST KNOW THAT YOU COULD EASILY LOSE THAT 2K IN ONE NIGHT OF PLAY AND WILL HAVE TO STOP UNTIL YOU CAN REPLENISH THE REST. THIS IS THE SAME CONCEPT AS A TRIP BANKROLL ESSENTIALLY - IF YOU TAP OUT, YOU ARE DONE UNTIL YOU CAN GET THE REST. THERE IS NOTHING WORSE THAN TAPPING OUT MID-TRIP, ESPECIALLY IF YOU HAVE EXPENSES FOR THAT TRIP, SO YOU WILL NEED TO FIGURE OUT (OR HAVE SOMEONE HERE DO IT FOR YOU) WHAT THE ODDS ARE OF TAPPING OUT IN A NIGHT OR A WEEK OR A MONTH GIVEN THE NUMBER OF HOURS YOU EXPECT TO PLAY AND YOUR STYLE OF PLAY.


To simplify, I'll list my main questions:

1. Is the $10 game substantially better than the $5 game (same rules but without surrender) -- I'd like to play the $5 table as it would allow my bankroll to be smaller, which would be nice in the beginning, but I don't want to sacrifice a large relative advantage.
>> IF YOU HAVE GET 30-40% OF THE NEEDED BANKROLL IMMEDIATELY AVAILABLE, I WOULD START AT THE $10 TABLES. LATE SURRENDER IS VERY VALUABLE. FORGET WONGING OUT AT -2 (DON'T PLAY ANYTHING BELOW TC=1) AND IT WILL BE EVEN BETTER.

2. Is there a more preferable spread?
>> 1-16 IS FINE IF YOU CAN GET AWAY WITH IT WITHOUT RAISING EYEBROWS IN THE PIT. SOMEONE WHO USES HILO CAN RUN THE OPTIMAL RAMP FOR YOU IF YOU ASK NICELY (I DONT USE HILO), BUT THE ONE YOU MENTION IS A DECENT START. TRUTHFULLY, IF YOU DONT PLAY ANY NEGATIVE EV HANDS, YOUR MAX BET WILL ACTUALLY LIKELY BE SOMEWHERE AROUND TC=7, BUT YOU SHOULD CONFIRM THAT WITH SOMEONE WHO USES HILO.

3. Should I log a certain number of hours on CV before heading to the casino, or a certain number of hours backcounting (either alone or while my friends play) at casinos before sitting down to play? (I plan on having my deck counting down to under 25 seconds before playing.)
>> AS LONG AS YOU CAN KEEP THE COUNT, DO THE TC DIVISION AND MAKE YOUR INDEX PLAYS IN SPLIT SECONDS, YOU ARE GOOD TO GO. IT TAKES SOME PEOPLE 5 HOURS TO GET THERE AN SOME PEOPLE 5 MONTHS. COMPLETELY DEPENDENT ON YOU AND HOW COMFORTABLE YOU ARE. IF YOU ARE NOT ALREADY COMFORTABLE PUTTING OUT SOMETHING LIKE $150 ON ONE HAND OF BLACKJACK, I WOULD RECOMMEND YOU FLAT BET YOUR FIRST SHOE AND ON THE NEXT SHOE, ONLY USE HALF YOUR RAMP TO GET USED TO THOSE BIG BETS. IT MIGHT TAKE A FEW SHOES OR A FEW NIGHTS BEFORE YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE PUTTING OUT THOSE MAX BETS. GO SLOW WITH IT UNTIL YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE. AS LONG AS YOU ARE ONLY PLAYING POSITIVE EV HANDS, YOUR SPREAD WONT BE OPTIMAL BUT YOU WILL STILL BE PLAYING A POSITIVE GAME.

4. Is the "piggybacking" (if there is a more technical term please let me know) mentioned above, which will likely be on the $5 tables, better than playing by myself at a $10 table?
>> PIGGYBACKING IS ALSO CALLED BACK BETTING, EITHER ARE FINE. WHY NOT PIGGYBACK AT THE $10 TABLES :devil:.

5. I have Professional Blackjack by Stanford Wong. Are there any other books you guys would recommend?
BLACKJACK ATTACK IF YOU WANT TO UNDERSTAND SOME OF THE MATH BEHIND THE GAME AND A FEW OTHER NUGGETS/TIPS. BLACKBELT IN BLACKJACK IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR OTHER TRAINING TIPS. THERE ARE A TON OF OTHERS FOR ENTERTAINMENT VALUE AND SOME EDUCATIONAL TIDBITS HERE AND THERE, BUT PB AND THE OTHERS ARE MORE THAN ENOUGH TO GET YOU STARTED.

Thanks in advance (and let me know if there is any needed information that I forgot to provide).

 

[Cardcounter]

a $199 max bet are you sure it isn't a $200 max bet? a $199 max just seems a little odd.

 

[Canceler]

a $199 max bet are you sure it isn't a $200 max bet? a $199 max just seems a little odd.

Yes, it's $199. Yes, it's odd.

 

[ycming]

Considering the pen and the late surrender rule, it over comes the hit 17.

I'd have my max bet out around TC of +4.

Ming

 

[suicyco maniac]

a $199 max bet are you sure it isn't a $200 max bet? a $199 max just seems a little odd.

Not odd in MN.

 

[chichow]

I've seen 199 in Minn.

Any other casinos in the US do the 199 type stuff?

You still bet 200 in Minn, it just when they pay out they will pay out 199 and if they take your money they will throw back a dollar.

 

[creeping panther]

I take

You just gave your casino away,,,,nice move

And they will not hesitate to bar either.

Nice way to start your "AP" career.:laugh:

CP

 

[itakeyourmoney]

You just gave your casino away,,,,nice move

And they will not hesitate to bar either.

Nice way to start your "AP" career.:laugh:

CP

Nah, it doesn't give away my identity. Even if every casino saw this thread it wouldn't make them more suspicious of their players than they were before.

Edit: Plus I assume more than one casino has this rule.

Second Edit: If anyone has good guides to team play in their favorites I'd really appreciate some links so I don't have to search through all the threads. I'm not very interested in playing with a team (at least not right now), but it would be interesting to learn about strategies.

Again, thanks in advance.

 

[itakeyourmoney]

I was reading another newcomer's thread and someone advised him to learn like 50 index plays since he was already going to learn I-18 -- so what other indices for 6d, h17, hi-lo should I consider?

Thanks again

Itake

Edit: I used CVData to find the "Big 63" index plays for me (as well as one with just I-18 and Fab 4). What I'm wondering is, will these be all the index plays I'll need for the hi-lo count?

 

[BMDD]

ITake- I think you will get more out of trying to answer some of your own questions. Then, if you get stuck come back and ask for some guidance. I think by having an understanding of the value and frequency of indices, you will have a better feel for the game. You will understand how much index play contributes to your advantage as well as the cost of misplaying certain hands, which may not be immediately relavent in a dollars and cents perspective but I think it will help you understand counting better and perhaps breed some confidence in your game.


..Obviously this is only what I think. haha.

 

[itakeyourmoney]

ITake- I think you will get more out of trying to answer some of your own questions. Then, if you get stuck come back and ask for some guidance. I think by having an understanding of the value and frequency of indices, you will have a better feel for the game. You will understand how much index play contributes to your advantage as well as the cost of misplaying certain hands, which may not be immediately relavent in a dollars and cents perspective but I think it will help you understand counting better and perhaps breed some confidence in your game.


..Obviously this is only what I think. haha.

I have been answering a lot of my own questions. Each of my two prior posts had about five questions each which I later removed. I do have one question though:

When I generated the Big 63 for my play it gave me some results which differed from the BS chart I generated on this site. On here it said I should surrender 8,8vA and 17vA, but CVData said I ought to always split 8,8vA and always stand on 17vA. Can anyone clarify this for me?

Edit: For now I left 17vA as always stand and 8,8vA as surrender when TC>=0 (and split on TC's below 0).

I uploaded my new Bs chart with the Big 63 indexes so others can use it if they'd like. (Note: Anything involving a TC below -1 has been removed since I plan to wong out if the TC is below -1 [perhaps even if it drops below 0, but 0 values have been included]. Also, in order to keep things simplified (that is, to keep it so that you only act on the index play with TC>= the required amount, I have changed some BS [so some former doubles are now hits with double with TC>=0, etc.].)

(Dead link: http://j.imagehost.org/view/0744/hilo_6d_h17_das_ls_with_big_63_index) _

_

Please let me know if there are any problems with my chart

Second Edit: I ran a sim for this, but with a 1-10 spread (an expected $18.14/hr is nice with the low ROR) it gives me my optimal spread as max bet at TC+3 -- should I keep this or adjust it? I was under the impression that with hi-lo the max bet usually comes around TC 5 or 6?

Here is a copy of the sim:

(Dead link: http://j.imagehost.org/view/0621/sim_for_6d_h17_ls_with_all_indices_with_1-10_spread) _

_

 

[itakeyourmoney]

Hey guys, I hate to bump my own thread it, but I've recently received a pm from someone who was using my chart but also was surprised by my result of having 17 stand against an Ace always.

Could anyone give me a definite answer as to what the correct play is at 17 v A?

Rules are: h17, das, ls, 75% pen, 6 deck

If I don't get an answer here I will not bump this again.

 

[Deathclutch]

Surrender is the correct BS play for a H17 game.

 

[k_c]

Hey guys, I hate to bump my own thread it, but I've recently received a pm from someone who was using my chart but also was surprised by my result of having 17 stand against an Ace always.

Could anyone give me a definite answer as to what the correct play is at 17 v A?

Rules are: h17, das, ls, 75% pen, 6 deck

If I don't get an answer here I will not bump this again.

I believe the HiLo index for 6 decks LS hard 17 versus ace for H17 is something like surrender < +1, stand >= +1

Edit: I would add that at some negative count, I estimate <= -13 HiLo, it is better to hit hard 17 versus ace (H17) rather than surrender.

 

[Meistro]

Are these tables no mid shoe entry?

 

[Blue Efficacy]

Are these tables no mid shoe entry?

Mid shoe entry is allowed at every table in this shop.


And the OP needs to work on deck estimation if he thinks that he's getting 70-80% pen

 

[Josh]

Mid shoe entry is allowed at every table in this shop.


And the OP needs to work on deck estimation if he thinks that he's getting 70-80% pen

indeed. much more favorable here. it didn't take me long to figure out where he was talking about either :laugh:

@OP I think I might know you.

 

[Karna]

Don't get greedy here and try to blend in as much as possible. This shop is not stupid.

 

[Josh]

Don't get greedy here and try to blend in as much as possible. This shop is not stupid.

I wouldn't sweat it too much myself. You have to remember that they're the second most profitable casino in the country.

I have seen the greedy ones play here, and sure, the PCs talked about it and admitted that he was counting, but they didn't really care all that much. For those that are wondering, he was floating around 20-25k. The PCs are all really friendly too Make friends guys!