I was wrong about Thunder Valley! Cheating confirmed

[JSTAT]

Station Casinos operate Thunder Valley's casino for the United Auburn Indian Community's Thunder Valley near Sacramento, California. Station Casinos is running a bait and switch operation at 21. Someone once said, "If it is too good to be true, then it isn't." The 75% double deck penetration at Thunder Valley and beating it, is only a pipe dream. The cards are stacked. I managed to see ten 4's when only eight exist in two decks. Instead of only beating us, they are also cheating us. The house edge inflates with more fours. The dealer busts less and double downs lose more often than normal. The dealer's soft 17 connects with more fours to nail us with 21's. Station Casinos should be run out of California for unethical business practices.

This is how the scam comes down. The cards are prepackaged with the loaded decks. The decks are opened by the pit bosses at the podiums and shuffled without inspection. The decks are placed into the shuffling machines. The players, dealers, and the pit bosses are not allowed to inspect the stacked decks. This is Station Casinos policy. A reverse Ocean's 13 scenario with the house reaping the rewards. I still won $50 in spite of the countermeasures. Sitting out when more aces and tens have been played. Watching the ten 4's drain out while I was not playing shocked me.

This happened today and was reported to the Bureau of Gambling Control Compliance & Enforcement Section in Sacramento. I told the agent the time and the number of the blackjack table where this occurred. Asked him if he can obtain the video from surveillance. He couldn't because of the compact signed with the state. He said he will investigate after talking with the Indian Gaming Board. You know that Station Casinos will be alerted before the Special Agent arrives. Too much money and jobs are at stake for the Sacramento area if Thunder Valley is busted. Station Casinos corporate greed will rule the day, with nothing to stop it.

 

[creeping panther]

Jstat

The cards are always fanned out where I play. I would refuse to play where they were not.

CP.

 

[ponyplayer2]

It will be interesting to see if they change the game back to 1/2 deck burn now that they have been exposed. Maybe they'll play fair for a while till the gaming commision is finished looking.:laugh:
Who watches the native casinos for this kind of stuff anyhow?

 

[bj bob]

...He said he will investigate after talking with the Indian Gaming Board. You know that Station Casinos will be alerted before the Special Agent arrives.

That's just like telling the Gestapo to check up on the Luftwaffe. :whip:

 

[ponyplayer2]

Ok, here's what I saw in two hours between 2 and 4 pm today. Burn 1 card and start the last round if cut card hasn't come up yet - so with a full table it can get close to a quarter deck. tracked 4s, 5s and 6s .once I got 9 5s and once 9 4s with a couple of rounds left. the dealer switched decks for new without finishing the deck. I wouldn't swear in a court of law I didn't miscount(I was drinking beer after all). The pit crew did examine the new cards in a half assed manner - did not count them all or check them all. I still believe that place is too tight to give us a honest game but I can't say for certain they're rigging the deck. With the d9 h17 rules and the $25 low limit you've gotta have a large bank roll to keep your ROR reasonably low. sadly still problably the best game this side of Reno.:violin:

 

[Katweezel]

Station Casinos operate Thunder Valley's casino for the United Auburn Indian Community's Thunder Valley near Sacramento, California. Station Casinos is running a bait and switch operation at 21. Someone once said, "If it is too good to be true, then it isn't." The 75% double deck penetration at Thunder Valley and beating it, is only a pipe dream. The cards are stacked. I managed to see ten 4's when only eight exist in two decks. Instead of only beating us, they are also cheating us. The house edge inflates with more fours. The dealer busts less and double downs lose more often than normal. The dealer's soft 17 connects with more fours to nail us with 21's. Station Casinos should be run out of California for unethical business practices.

This is how the scam comes down. The cards are prepackaged with the loaded decks. The decks are opened by the pit bosses at the podiums and shuffled without inspection. The decks are placed into the shuffling machines. The players, dealers, and the pit bosses are not allowed to inspect the stacked decks. This is Station Casinos policy. A reverse Ocean's 13 scenario with the house reaping the rewards. I still won $50 in spite of the countermeasures. Sitting out when more aces and tens have been played. Watching the ten 4's drain out while I was not playing shocked me.

This happened today and was reported to the Bureau of Gambling Control Compliance & Enforcement Section in Sacramento. I told the agent the time and the number of the blackjack table where this occurred. Asked him if he can obtain the video from surveillance. He couldn't because of the compact signed with the state. He said he will investigate after talking with the Indian Gaming Board. You know that Station Casinos will be alerted before the Special Agent arrives. Too much money and jobs are at stake for the Sacramento area if Thunder Valley is busted. Station Casinos corporate greed will rule the day, with nothing to stop it.

There is one thing they haven't taken into consideration: JSTAT is on their case... Go get em mate, and make this your Heroic Mission. Once they see the Lone Ranger (minus Tonto) is galloping close, they will probably succumb and assume the Missionary Position... My guess anyway.

 

[creeping panther]

My advice

Ok, here's what I saw in two hours between 2 and 4 pm today. Burn 1 card and start the last round if cut card hasn't come up yet - so with a full table it can get close to a quarter deck. tracked 4s, 5s and 6s .once I got 9 5s and once 9 4s with a couple of rounds left. the dealer switched decks for new without finishing the deck. I wouldn't swear in a court of law I didn't miscount(I was drinking beer after all). The pit crew did examine the new cards in a half assed manner - did not count them all or check them all. I still believe that place is too tight to give us a honest game but I can't say for certain they're rigging the deck. With the d9 h17 rules and the $25 low limit you've gotta have a large bank roll to keep your ROR reasonably low. sadly still problably the best game this side of Reno.:violin:

Stay away. Take a trip to Vegas or any one of the many places with fine games. These people are F..ing crooks.

CP

 

[ponyplayer2]

rereading my post I think I was a bit unclear.I observed 3 different tables.the fives came up at a different table than the fours.I thought i was mistaken about the 5s..Later,at a new table, I had a count of 7,7,5 for 4,5,6 respectivly. Out come 2 more fours amongst the 5 players hands.I saw this but find it unbelievable that they would choose this way to cheat when so many less brazen ways exist. Even a fair game is very profitable. Got to pay for that new hotel I guess.

 

[JSTAT]

rereading my post I think I was a bit unclear.I observed 3 different tables.the fives came up at a different table than the fours.I thought i was mistaken about the 5s..Later,at a new table, I had a count of 7,7,5 for 4,5,6 respectivly. Out come 2 more fours amongst the 5 players hands.I saw this but find it unbelievable that they would choose this way to cheat when so many less brazen ways exist. Even a fair game is very profitable. Got to pay for that new hotel I guess.

Good job ponyplayer2! I hope that the Special Agent from the Bureau of Gambling Control Compliance & Enforcement Section makes a surprise inspection. He said that he can walk into the casino unannounced and ask that the cards be inspected. Maybe he has already. I wouldn't be surprised that Station Casinos contract to run the casino at Thunder Valley be terminated soon for undisclosed reasons. The other casinos in the region run clean games. Red Hawk and Cache Creek and the others disclose the cards for all to see, a fair game for all. The Office of the Attorney General head Jerry Brown doesn't desire cheating from a Las Vegas casino chain under his watch. Brown is running for govenor in 2010 and running scum like Station Casinos out of California will help his bid.

 

[shadroch]

Myself, I'm hoping Jerry Brown comes here and runs the scum out.

 

[bj bob]

Brown is running for governor in 2010 and running scum like Station Casinos out of California will help his bid.

My buddy Moon Beam Jerry? The former Gov, Mayor of Oakland, and current Attorney General? Oh boy, I just can't wait!

 

[ponyplayer2]

Hey, Jerry was right about the moonbeam thing so I guess he got the last laugh. He's a strange one no doubt but was way ahead of his time on many issues. sorry, this belongs on another board.

 

[bj bob]

Hey, Jerry was right about the moonbeam thing so I guess he got the last laugh. He's a strange one no doubt but was way ahead of his time on many issues. sorry, this belongs on another board.

Yeah, he's definitely Zen Zone material.

 

[FLASH1296]

As this is being done on sovereign Native American land I am not surprised.
There have been several accounts (in California) of Indian Casinos cheating.
The only thing that can be done is to drive them out of business by heavily publicizing that they are cheating the public out of their money.

If the exposes are ubiquitous and long-lasting they may lose a large percentage of their customer base. That is the only thing that they will understand.

I would contact the Northern California T.V. stations and newspapers and provide them with the data.

 

[Katweezel]

Rough chance

As this is being done on sovereign Native American land I am not surprised.
There have been several accounts (in California) of Indian Casinos cheating.
The only thing that can be done is to drive them out of business by heavily publicizing that they are cheating the public out of their money.

If the exposes are ubiquitous and long-lasting they may lose a large percentage of their customer base. That is the only thing that they will understand.

I would contact the Northern California T.V. stations and newspapers and provide them with the data.

Flash, if I remember correctly, you have said that unlike Blackjack, 4s are the most powerful cards for Baccarat players. If this casino is adding 4s to Blackjack decks, perhaps there is a (rough) chance they are adding extra 4s to Baccarat shoes as well, thus making them (accidentally) player-friendly?...

 

[Katweezel]

Fuel for the fire

Good job ponyplayer2! I hope that the Special Agent from the Bureau of Gambling Control Compliance & Enforcement Section makes a surprise inspection. He said that he can walk into the casino unannounced and ask that the cards be inspected. Maybe he has already. I wouldn't be surprised that Station Casinos contract to run the casino at Thunder Valley be terminated soon for undisclosed reasons. The other casinos in the region run clean games. Red Hawk and Cache Creek and the others disclose the cards for all to see, a fair game for all. The Office of the Attorney General head Jerry Brown doesn't desire cheating from a Las Vegas casino chain under his watch. Brown is running for govenor in 2010 and running scum like Station Casinos out of California will help his bid.

I have a US pal that plays a lot of baccarat. When I mentioned this casino, he said he noticed casino employees stacking a baccarat shoe there, about one year ago, but decided against reporting it. He sent these... interesting articles. Go get em JSTAT!:
http://www.insiderpages.com/b/3710082406/thunder-valley-casino-lincoln

http://www.metroactive.com/papers/sonoma/04.06.05/byrne-0514.html

(Dead link: http://www.comstocksmag.com/Articles/0807_F_High-Rollers.aspx)

 

[WRX]

Cross-posted from beyondcounting.com .

I was at Thunder Valley late last night, Tuesday July 7, so here goes.

JSTAT's original report on playing conditions was accurate. Thunder Valley uses a cut card on the double deck game. The dealer removes the shuffled pack from the ASM, and presents it to a player for the cut. The dealer then restacks the pack, places it in the discard hopper, and inserts the cut card through a slot in the hopper. Only one card is then burned. The pack is dealt until the cut card comes out. I counted down one pack. 79 cards, including the burn card, came out before the cut card. So penetration is just about exactly 75%. Rules are H17, D9, DAS. Note that the table minimum and maximum limit your spread to about 10:1. The casino does not allow mid-pack entry.

I then watched four packs, on four separate tables, dealt all the way through. I counted the fours that came out, counting each suit separately. The number of fours that came out before the shuffle were, in club-diamond-heart-spade order: 2-2-2-2, 2-1-1-2, 2-2-2-2, 1-1-2-2. Admittedly this was a small sample. I didn't feel like wasting more time watching. However, if there were more than 10 fours in each of these packs, I think it highly probable that I would have seen 3 fours in one suit show up at least once, seeing over 75% of the cards in the pack.

It would be extremely hazardous for the casino to add fours to the pack. The chances of, for example, 3 fours of spades landing face up on the layout at the same time would be very high, in not too many rounds of play. Inevitable, really.

No one could seriously dispute that casino managers can be really dumb. But I think that if they consciously set out to scam players, they'll first give it at least minimal thought and not choose a cheating method that is obviously bound to be exposed for even the clueless to see.

 

[ihate17]

As I stated in an earlier post

Cross-posted from beyondcounting.com .

I was at Thunder Valley late last night, Tuesday July 7, so here goes.

JSTAT's original report on playing conditions was accurate. Thunder Valley uses a cut card on the double deck game. The dealer removes the shuffled pack from the ASM, and presents it to a player for the cut. The dealer then restacks the pack, places it in the discard hopper, and inserts the cut card through a slot in the hopper. Only one card is then burned. The pack is dealt until the cut card comes out. I counted down one pack. 79 cards, including the burn card, came out before the cut card. So penetration is just about exactly 75%. Rules are H17, D9, DAS. Note that the table minimum and maximum limit your spread to about 10:1. The casino does not allow mid-pack entry.

I then watched four packs, on four separate tables, dealt all the way through. I counted the fours that came out, counting each suit separately. The number of fours that came out before the shuffle were, in club-diamond-heart-spade order: 2-2-2-2, 2-1-1-2, 2-2-2-2, 1-1-2-2. Admittedly this was a small sample. I didn't feel like wasting more time watching. However, if there were more than 10 fours in each of these packs, I think it highly probable that I would have seen 3 fours in one suit show up at least once, seeing over 75% of the cards in the pack.

It would be extremely hazardous for the casino to add fours to the pack. The chances of, for example, 3 fours of spades landing face up on the layout at the same time would be very high, in not too many rounds of play. Inevitable, really.

No one could seriously dispute that casino managers can be really dumb. But I think that if they consciously set out to scam players, they'll first give it at least minimal thought and not choose a cheating method that is obviously bound to be exposed for even the clueless to see.

It is much easier to hide extra little cards in a 6 deck shoe than in a double deck game.

ihate17

 

[Pro21]

Don't you know on Tuesdays they add 5s, not 4s. :laugh:

 

[FLASH1296]

If they simply removed an Ace from each deck, they would have an enormous enrichment of their House Advantage without running the risk of having 3 suited cards of the same rank appear while there was someone other than an unconscious ploppy seated there.