if i make a stupid play does it effect others at the table?

R

robbie380

Member
ok i am a newb at blackjack strategy. i am going to vegas for the first time at the end of next month and i figure i will be playing blackjack the most since i have the best chance at losing the least money there with basic strategy. i am a stock trader by profession so i don't like to gamble and i don't really like to lose money.

anyhow...my friends and i were playing cards this weekend and we decided to deal some blackjack. i made a stupid hit on a soft 18 against the dealer 6, but i ended up winning. :p basically, they were all railing on me for making the hit and saying it screws up their hands even if i do win. that makes ZERO sense to me. each player's hand is independent of the other person's hand, correct? is this just a gambling myth that people believe or is it true that if one player makes a bad play for himself then it effects the other players?
 
Stupid plays will help as much as hurt. It all works out in the end.

You say in your post you plan on playing basic strategy. The basic strategy I'm familiar with is to Double a Soft 18 against 6 if allowed, otherwise stand. So, unless you'd already hit it once, then the mistake was not doubling.
 
yeah i think thats what i was thinking when i hit, but they were just saying it was stupid to hit period and they were being jerks about it.

i am trying to soak up as much info as i can before i go to vegas because i don't really like to lose. i know i can't learn to count cards in a month because i am not that smart, but i want to learn as much as i can since they had to act all snobby about their blackjack playing lol.
 
A stupid play will NOT effect the players results. But it will effect their manners.People often get irrational when you make a play they don't approve of.Times like that,its good to have a large cheap cigar in your pocket.Look them in the eye and say"Well,if you didn't like that,I'm sure you will just love this" as you light it up.Works even better if you are hitting a soft 17 at the time.
Bottom line-play the best game you are capable of,and don't worry about the rest of the table. The good players know better,and the jerks will be jerks,regardless.
 
If you are playing BJ on the strip,you'll find a majority of players are clueless.
If you are on Fremont Street,its a different story.
 
shadroch said:
If you are playing BJ on the strip,you'll find a majority of players are clueless.
If you are on Fremont Street,its a different story.
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I've seen some massively ignorant ones on Fremont....but that could have been cover :laugh:
 
thanks for the validation guys. when you are in that situation it's like people are showing you the color red and saying "hey look at this blue color!"

a second thing...should i just get started by memorizing that chart on wizardofodds.com http://wizardofodds.com/blackjack? is there any area i should move onto next after memorizing the basic strategy charts?
 
robbie380 said:
thanks for the validation guys. when you are in that situation it's like people are showing you the color red and saying "hey look at this blue color!"

a second thing...should i just get started by memorizing that chart on wizardofodds.com http://wizardofodds.com/blackjack? is there any area i should move onto next after memorizing the basic strategy charts?
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Yes, that is a good start. Next step would be counting, but not only do you have to be perfect basic stragtegy, it has to come to you FAST. Before moving ot counting, try the trainer at:

(Dead link: http://www.blackjack-bst.com/)

When you can get under 500 secs with less than 10 mistakes, then you are ready to practice counting. Once again, I would recommend lots of practice before trying for real money in a casino. Practice counting watching a game from behind a table. Or on sites like CountingEdge.com, or by hand with your own deck, or with software.

As far as insipid superstitions like people messing up your hands, its not your fault because of the legions of morons who think without logic and because it is popularized in the media (such as in the recent movie "The Cooler".)

There is one exception. A VERY good player may ask you to wait till the end of the shoe to come in. You may notice he has large bets out. That's because he wants all the good hands to himself! haha... but then it again it might be someone who thinks you will "mess up his hands".
 
robbie380 said:
i am a stock trader by profession so i don't like to gamble
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*teehee*

Okay, but seriously, I don't like to lose either. However, bear these things in mine:

1) If you go in, even playing basic strategy, the long-run promise is that you will lose money. Treat it as an entertainment expense.

2) While the long-term money loss isn't that high a rate, there's some really large fluctuations, even if you're just placing $5 bets. Over one trip, the short-term luck factor is going to be a bigger impact than the long-term house edge.

For one trip, I think basic strategy would be fine. You could also consider using the basic strategy engine here, especially if you know the exact type of game you plan on playing.

However, if you want to be a hotshot after that, you could either try to cram in knowledge of a card counting system in a month (unlikely). Or you could find some of those Frank Rezny articles that list a few basic strategy deviations you can play, and all you have to do is look at cards on the table at any given moment.
 
robbie380 said:
..... i am a stock trader by profession so i don't like to gamble and i don't really like to lose money. ....
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roflol..... who was it? Edward Thorpe i believe that said, "...the stock market the biggest casino in the world..."
you'll lose money in the long run with basic strategy only. card counting and other advantage play will keep you out of the red with a reasonable risk of ruin.
the way others play at the blackjack table has little or no effect on the prospects of other players in the long run.

best regards,
mr fr0g :D
 
Stupid plays

Does stupid play affect others?
Not the outcome of the cards. But it certainly affects the player's volume and tone of voice! Even CORRECT PLAY effects some "less informed" players. I split 9's once and you should have heard all the groans. The other player said, "You should never split a "winning" hand!"
 
robbie380 said:
i am a stock trader by profession so i don't like to gamble and i don't really like to lose money.
Click to expand...

In that case you’ll feel quite comfortable in a casino. You will find many of the same characters at the tables. The progression players are similar to the day traders – they are always looking for “streaks” and “indicators” to predict the game. Some will get lucky but most will end up in the red. Then there are the advantage players. These are the guys who find legitimate ways to beat the system. In fact, the guy who developed some of the card counting systems we use today went on to develop the concept of hedge funds.

The goal of advantage play is the same as investing: maximize EV while minimizing variance (annualized standard deviation of the log returns). Many of the formulas we use are based on investment formulas like Sharpe Ratios, Black-Scholes and the Modigliani-Modigliani models. If you ever decide to pursue blackjack further I’m sure you will find much of it very familiar. :)

-Sonny-
 
Robbie was it a 2 card soft 18?

If your soft 18 was on your first 2 cards, you should not only hit it, you should be doubling down against a dealer 3-6.
If your soft 18 was after you already hit you stay, against 2-8.

The only way you can effect the play of others by making a mistake is if you know the dealers hole card and you know the order of all the cards to be dealt out that hand and the order is favorable and you change it. If you do not know all these things, the only person you are hurting by playing wrong is yourself. Look at it this way, you know you should hit your 12 vs dealer 2. Say you also know that the dealer has 12 and the next two cards are a 9 and 10 but you do not know their order. If you hit and it is a 9, you get 21, the dealer busts and the table congratulates you. If you hit and it is a 10, you bust, the dealer gets 21 and some jerk says you took the dealers bust card. The thing about blackjack players is they have very selective memories and will remember the time your playing correctly causes them (in their opinion) to lose but will immediately forget when your proper play makes them win (again, their opinion).

ihate17
 
sagefr0g said:
roflol..... who was it? Edward Thorpe i believe that said, "...the stock market the biggest casino in the world..."
you'll lose money in the long run with basic strategy only. card counting and other advantage play will keep you out of the red with a reasonable risk of ruin.
the way others play at the blackjack table has little or no effect on the prospects of other players in the long run.

best regards,
mr fr0g :D
Click to expand...


yes but only if you play it like a casino :p

i thought that would sound funny to yall when i wrote it, but it's true. i've only had 20 losing days this year (just throwing that out there for anyone who thinks trading is a casino). i don't kill it everyday like some of the other guys at my office but i'm comfortable. you just have to find a consistent edge and minimize risk. i like how i make it sound easy with that generic line lol.

anyhow, i am trying to learn to count down decks. it's hard to do it fast without mistakes, but then again i've only been doing it for a couple days. also, i bought a book by arnold snyder called blackbelt in blackjack. it looked solid compared to the other books that were there and i heard it was a good book to look at.

a question for the good counters...how much do distractions effect you? do become good enough that it becomes like counting from 1 to 10 and you don't even have to think? i figure i will be dealing with ample distractions in the casino and last night when i was practicing while my gf was watching a movie i noticed i was much worse. i should probably get good in isolation first and then deal with distractions later.

also, i do know i will lose in the long run with only basic strategy, but it is the quickest fix i have and i give myself a better chance of losing less money or getting lucky and making money.
 
Read Max Rubins "Comp City" for a way to win,using only BS.Not only does it show you how to gain a huge advantage over the house,using only BS, but I believe his system is better and much more fun than counting.Less risky,as well.No need to count or make 1-8 spreads.
 
robbie380 said:
yes but only if you play it like a casino :p
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exactly. apparently Thorpe applies principles with hedge funds in such a way to have an edge in ways similar too how edges are achieved with advantage play over a casino. how he goes about i haven't the foggiest but he did manage to get rich.

robbie380 said:
i thought that would sound funny to yall when i wrote it, but it's true. i've only had 20 losing days this year (just throwing that out there for anyone who thinks trading is a casino). i don't kill it everyday like some of the other guys at my office but i'm comfortable. you just have to find a consistent edge and minimize risk. i like how i make it sound easy with that generic line lol.
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well that sounds like what we try to do with advantage play. the gamble however is still there as long as the word risk is meaningful.

robbie380 said:
anyhow, i am trying to learn to count down decks. it's hard to do it fast without mistakes, but then again i've only been doing it for a couple days. also, i bought a book by arnold snyder called blackbelt in blackjack. it looked solid compared to the other books that were there and i heard it was a good book to look at.
Click to expand...

some people pick up counting quickly others not. i was one of the not so quick. i'm familiar with Blackbelt In Blackjack but not very conversant with respect to it. it kind of specializes in methods that seem less fundamental to me. i shoot for having a more generic fundamental understanding of advantage play. unfortunately i don't know of a really simple book that can provide you with that. John May's Get the Edge in Blackjack comes closest that i know of. problem with his book is that it is so concise that as your reading it if you blink you may miss an important point. you might consider the ace/ten front count described by Fred Renzy in Blackjack Bluebook II .it is a very simple count that can afford you a small edge when used in conjuntion with basic strategy and a few basic strategy departures. i can provide you with a link about it if you like.

robbie380 said:
a question for the good counters...how much do distractions effect you? do become good enough that it becomes like counting from 1 to 10 and you don't even have to think? i figure i will be dealing with ample distractions in the casino and last night when i was practicing while my gf was watching a movie i noticed i was much worse. i should probably get good in isolation first and then deal with distractions later.
Click to expand...

distractions are a problem for me, simply because i'm the type that is easily distracted but you can train your self to overcome them. my biggest distraction is when the adrenilan gets to flowing when a big bet is out in a high count. for some reason that is when i usually lose the count.
it probably would be best to gain some proficiency in isolation at first.
try counting the cards three differant ways in your practice sessions.
1. flip the cards one at a time and maintain the running count.
2. flip the cards two at a time and maintain the running count.
3. fan the whole deck out on a table and count up the running count.

robbie380 said:
also, i do know i will lose in the long run with only basic strategy, but it is the quickest fix i have and i give myself a better chance of losing less money or getting lucky and making money.
Click to expand...
right. you may really want to consider the ace/ten front count. but i warn you the results can be quite volatile.

best regards,
mr fr0g :D
 
I know I'm not supposed to sweat other people's plays at the table... it helps as often as it hurts, blah blah blah. I'm usually good at doing that, but I almost punched this guy out on the weekend.

After several shoes of flat betting (the count would *not* go up!) I finally get a chance to increase. I go to a max bet of $50 and get dealt a 10 against the dealer's 3. Moron to my right gets a 13 and hits it. Hits it! :whip:

He gets an ace. MY ACE. I clear my throat and try to stay calm. He hits again. He takes another ace. MY OTHER ACE. :flame:

I try to remain calm. The count is pretty high, so I should still be ok. I sigh and slide out another $50 in chips for my double. Only the asshole is not done playing his hand. Hits again. Takes a face card and busts.

Of course, I get a 5 for my double card, dealer makes a hand, and the rest is history. It took a lot of will power not to backhand this fool in the mouth!!

EDIT: whoa, major old thread bump! I searched for "players hurting you" because I didn't want to start a new thread on it. Sorry. :)
 
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