Illustrious 18 / Fab 4 (Hi / Lo System)

#21
21forme said:
It SHOULD in the case of BJ. Unfortunately, blackjack, like 3CP is not a trademarked or copyrighted game, so they can do whatever they want, such as make a player BJ a losing hand (when will that happen?!) While technically not cheating, it IS deceptive, especially the way some casinos hide the BJ payoff in very small print on the electronic sign, or my favorite, hiding rules on the felt by spreading the cards on top of them.

Other games such as Spanish 21 are copyrighted, so a casino cannot change any rules without he author/manufacturer offering it.

Your example of video poker is a non-sequitur. Poker hands have no historically defined payoffs.
Yeah there are all kinds of shenanigans that casinos do these days.
One of my regular Indian casinos doesn't even show players whether a table is 3:2 or 6:5 AT ALL lol. Nothing on the signs, and nothing on the felt at all. Fyi the single deck is 6:5 lol
 

21forme

Well-Known Member
#22
Counting_Is_Fun said:
One of my regular Indian casinos doesn't even show players whether a table is 3:2 or 6:5 AT ALL
Did you read BobN's book, "The Law for Gamblers"? Chapter 8 is titled Indian Gaming: OMG, WTF. That sums it up well.
 
#23
21forme said:
Did you read BobN's book, "The Law for Gamblers"? Chapter 8 is titled Indian Gaming: OMG, WTF. That sums it up well.
No I haven't read it, but have listened to GWAE for many years. Yes, his title says a lot lol. I will look it up.
Yeah you have to be careful out there for sure.
 

KewlJ

Well-Known Member
#24
Unfortunately, not identifying whether a game is 3:2 or 6:5, either on the felt or by sign is not only happening at Indian Casinos. It is happening more and more right here in Vegas. Games I am not familiar with, I ask. And occasionally I forget and am suckered in, until I or another player gets a blackjack.
 
#25
KewlJ said:
Unfortunately, not identifying whether a game is 3:2 or 6:5, either on the felt or by sign is not only happening at Indian Casinos. It is happening more and more right here in Vegas. Games I am not familiar with, I ask. And occasionally I forget and am suckered in, until I or another player gets a blackjack.
Wow I wouldn't think they can get away with that in LV too.
You should fire off some emails to whoever oversees those games, politicians, other casinos, local news channels, etc. I've had success doing things like that.
I used to ask, and they always just act confused.
So now I don't even ask, I think that's a tell. Nobody asks unless you are smart.
 

Hell'nBack

Well-Known Member
#26
21forme said:
It SHOULD in the case of BJ. Unfortunately, blackjack, like 3CP is not a trademarked or copyrighted game, so they can do whatever they want, such as make a player BJ a losing hand (when will that happen?!) While technically not cheating, it IS deceptive, especially the way some casinos hide the BJ payoff in very small print on the electronic sign, or my favorite, hiding rules on the felt by spreading the cards on top of them.

Other games such as Spanish 21 are copyrighted, so a casino cannot change any rules without he author/manufacturer offering it.

Your example of video poker is a non-sequitur. Poker hands have no historically defined payoffs.

Not quite accurate. When casinos run promos, I've seen them change the Spanish 21 rules. For example, limiting the player to a single hole is one. Another is paying an extra $100 bonus on suited BJs and paying 2-1 on all BJs and an extra $25 on all suited matches.
 
#27
Payout for getting bj may not technically be a rule, but we have to think of it as serious as one and get a hold of this. Rules and/or payouts getting worse is not acceptable!
 
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#28
Can anyone clear this up..

15 vs 10 is a Fab 4 Surrender at a TC of 0 or higher. Please correct me if I'm wrong. And since basic strategy is to surrender a 15 vs 10 anyway, according to the Illustrious 18 and Fab 4 it should always be surrendered, even at a TC below 0. Now, the Illustrious 18 says to stand 15 vs 10 with a TC of 4 or higher. So, let's say the TC is 4 and you are dealt 8-7 vs dealer 10. In this case, surrender is the play because the Fab 4 Surrender always overrules the Illustrious 18, with the exception of when taking insurance followed by a surrender is the correct play. So, the Illustrious 18 play of 15 vs 10 would only come into play if your first two cards do not total 15. For example, the TC is 4 and you are dealt 3-2 vs a dealer 10. You then take a hit and get a 10, making your total 15. In this case, you would stand. Again, please correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks everybody! :)
 

DSchles

Well-Known Member
#29
Teetime11 said:
Can anyone clear this up..

15 vs 10 is a Fab 4 Surrender at a TC of 0 or higher. Please correct me if I'm wrong. And since basic strategy is to surrender a 15 vs 10 anyway, according to the Illustrious 18 and Fab 4 it should always be surrendered, even at a TC below 0. Now, the Illustrious 18 says to stand 15 vs 10 with a TC of 4 or higher. So, let's say the TC is 4 and you are dealt 8-7 vs dealer 10. In this case, surrender is the play because the Fab 4 Surrender always overrules the Illustrious 18, with the exception of when taking insurance followed by a surrender is the correct play. So, the Illustrious 18 play of 15 vs 10 would only come into play if your first two cards do not total 15. For example, the TC is 4 and you are dealt 3-2 vs a dealer 10. You then take a hit and get a 10, making your total 15. In this case, you would stand. Again, please correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks everybody! :)
You're mostly correct (see below), but you fail to realize that not all games offer surrender! So, of course you can have 15 as your first two cards at +4 and still just stand on that hand, because you aren't permitted to surrender!

Not sure what you meant by writing this: "And since basic strategy is to surrender a 15 vs 10 anyway, according to the Illustrious 18 and Fab 4 it should always be surrendered, even at a TC below 0." Fab 4 says surrender when TC >=0. So why would you say to surrender at TC below zero? That isn't true.

Don
 
#30
DSchles said:
You're mostly correct (see below), but you fail to realize that not all games offer surrender! So, of course you can have 15 as your first two cards at +4 and still just stand on that hand, because you aren't permitted to surrender!

Not sure what you meant by writing this: "And since basic strategy is to surrender a 15 vs 10 anyway, according to the Illustrious 18 and Fab 4 it should always be surrendered, even at a TC below 0." Fab 4 says surrender when TC >=0. So why would you say to surrender at TC below zero? That isn't true.

Don
Could only be true for someone not counting and playing basic strategy. The player could surrender 15 vs 10 in a negative count, obviously not knowing the count is such.
 

DSchles

Well-Known Member
#31
The G Man said:
Could only be true for someone not counting and playing basic strategy. The player could surrender 15 vs 10 in a negative count, obviously not knowing the count is such.
Yes, correct. Maybe that's what the OP meant.

Don
 
#32
This is what I meant by that. Now, keep in mind I'm referring to counting via the hi/lo system, and implementing the Illustrious 18 and Fab 4 only. So, when you get a hand with a TC that the Illustrious 18 or Fab 4 says nothing about, the correct thing to do would be to revert to basic strategy, right? In other words, if you are dealt 15 vs 10 and the TC is 0, the correct play is to surrender. With the same scenario, but with a TC of 4, the correct play is also to surrender. Now, with again the same scenario but with a TC of -1, the Illustrious 18 nor the Fab 4 says to do anything. Therefore, the correct thing to do would be to revert to basic strategy, which also says to surrender. That's why I said that when counting via the hi/lo system, and using the Illustrious 18 and Fab 4 only, the correct play regardless of the TC, is to surrender. This is also assuming that there is no early surrender, but there is late surrender. Counting hi/lo using the Illustrious 18 and Fab 4 only, with good rules (late surrender, S17, and all normal stuff), is profitable, right?
 
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#33
Teetime11 said:
This is what I meant by that. Now, keep in mind I'm referring to counting via the hi/lo system, and implementing the Illustrious 18 and Fab 4 only. So, when you get a hand with a TC that the Illustrious 18 or Fab 4 says nothing about, the correct thing to do would be to revert to basic strategy, right? In other words, if you are dealt 15 vs 10 and the TC is 0, the correct play is to surrender. With the same scenario, but with a TC of 4, the correct play is also to surrender. Now, with again the same scenario but with a TC of -1, the Illustrious 18 nor the Fab 4 says to do anything. Therefore, the correct thing to do would be to revert to basic strategy, which also says to surrender. That's why I said that when counting via the hi/lo system, and using the Illustrious 18 and Fab 4 only, the correct play regardless of the TC, is to surrender. This is also assuming that there is no early surrender, but there is late surrender. Counting hi/lo using the Illustrious 18 and Fab 4 only, with good rules (late surrender, S17, and all normal stuff), is profitable, right?
No, you are confusing two different things.
Playing basic strategy means playing without counting.
When you count and use "0" to surrender 15 vs 10, if your TC is -1, you simply hit. Cause this is what your index play is saying. The correct way to use the "0" surrender index is the following: "You surrender at TC of "0" or more, otherwise hit".
It doesn't say use the index otherwise use basic strategy. You will be using basic strategy when you are not counting or when you have a hand to play for which you have no index in your counting system or in your memory ;-) The basic strategy player will always surrender 15 vs 10 cause he has no idea of the count. When you have no idea of the composition of the remaining cards, you will always be better to surrender this hand. Not the case for you if you are counting.
 
#34
KewlJ said:
I have always thought this is a red flag. You aren't going to see many players do this that aren't pretty serious about their play, meaning at least a pretty good basic strategy player. Once you "alert" the pit/surveillance that you a good player serious about the game rather than a ploppy type player, the next step is to figure out how good?

To be honest, surrender itself has sort of turned into that kind of "tell". You just don't see many "regular players" surrender anymore, and when they do it is almost always 16 vs 10, occasionally 15 vs 10. When I see players surrendering other than 16 vs 10, including against an ace and doing it correctly, I can almost always peg them as a counter.
I've seen people surrender all kinds of stuff. Now I RARELY see people surrender correctly only. I've seen people who never surrender and people who surrender 12 vs 10. I agree the most common surrender is 16 vs 10. I have no problem taking insurance and then surrendering. After all the reason I am surrendering is a I put a big bet out and was HOPING the dealer had BJ so I wouldn't have to play this garbage hand.I know you live in Vegas so maybe it's different there.Almost all of my surrending has been in PA with a little at Hard Rock AC when they still had it and a few sessions at Ocean since they added it. i pretty much only play double deck in Vegas since I don't care about being backed off on my few trips per year, if I lived there I'd have a different approach.

i've seen 6:5 in really tiny letters on the plack or even worse if it's computerized 6:5 listed at the bottom going across the screen like the ESPN bottom line thing so it's not even always there.
 
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