I'm novice card counter, help!!! Should I switch to Zen from Hi opt II for shoe game??

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Zexika

Active Member
Hi. I'm also new to forum, nice to meet you all.

I started card counting earlier this year. Initially used HiLo, then came across CVCX and learned Hi Opt II. I can only sidecount Aces in double deck.

I recently moved and where I am at, there are no double deck games, but 6 deck shoes, S17, LS, DAS, NO RSA, maybe 70% pen.

I cannot sidecount through 6 deck shoe, so is it better to switch to Zen? I do 1-4 spread of two hands of $25. After recently seeing a counter getting "checks play" and getting barred before my own eyes I don't have balls to do big spread. Plus, only two casinos in 3 hour radius, so I'd like to milk these.

CVCX simulation is showing Hi Opt II is superior, even without ace side count adjustment, but checking on the box with late surrender shows that I have edge at TC of 0, so I must be doing something wrong. Also, I read that Zen is better for shoe. I'm kind of lost here. Some inputs would be greatly appreciate it.

Also, those that can sidecount through whole shoe, how do you guys do it? Any tips?
 
X

xengrifter

Banned
Zexika said:
I cannot sidecount through 6 deck shoe, so is it better to switch to Zen?
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You should simply switch to Zen for any number of decks.
The good news is that you can keep your HO2 indices, they will work just fine for Zen, and now you can say goodbye to your Ace side count.
 
X

xengrifter

Banned
..... And if you are not fully long-term already committed to your current true-count per half deck scheme, you should strongly consider switching to a count per two decks approach, which is both easier and more accurate, though it would require you to relearn indices as well.

Some experts and pros considered HO2 "obsolete" more than 30 years ago.
 
Z

Zexika

Active Member
If someone can run sim comparing Zen vs Hi Opt II I'd appreciate it. I see on forums Zen is better for shoe but my sim on CVCX shows not, which is really throwing me off ._. my common sense tells me Ace being included in the count should perform better than one that counts Ace as 0, but I'm no math genius...
 
X

xengrifter

Banned
Zexika said:
If someone can run sim comparing Zen vs Hi Opt II I'd appreciate it. I see on forums Zen is better for shoe but my sim on CVCX shows not, which is really throwing me off .
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Sims show HO2 superior in all games....
.... But sim results are not rightly the sole arbiter for system selection.
 
R

Raven

Well-Known Member
Zexika said:
Even without ace side count, in 6 deck shoe games?
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You can side count Aces in shoe games but their playing efficiency is not as important as single or double deck games. Honestly since you're fairly new I would suggest sticking with Hilo and work on your spread. A 1-4 spread is way too low for a 6D without disciplined back counting. I would argue no less than 1-10 for 6D and 1-12 for 8D minimum.
 
X

xengrifter

Banned
Raven said:
You can side count Aces in shoe games but their playing efficiency is not as important as single or double deck games.
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This issue has little or nothing to do with playing efficiency.
Raven said:
. I would argue no less than 1-10 for 6D and 1-12 for 8D minimum
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Those spreads are wholly insufficient for a play all game.
 
Z

Zexika

Active Member
Raven said:
You can side count Aces in shoe games but their playing efficiency is not as important as single or double deck games. Honestly since you're fairly new I would suggest sticking with Hilo and work on your spread. A 1-4 spread is way too low for a 6D without disciplined back counting. I would argue no less than 1-10 for 6D and 1-12 for 8D minimum.
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I'd love to spread that much, but I seen someone get the bar at table I'm playing with 1-8 spread sadly ._. I play greens, CVCX shows I'm doing about $23/hour with Hi Opt II no ASC, but then again sim I run doesn't seem to be on point. I'd really appreciate someone running one for me the right way.

Sim shows hi opt II > hilo/zen even in shoe games, even without ace sidecount, but I read zen being better than hi opt II without ASC. I don't know which to believe and whether to switch or not.

Btw, does HiLo perform better than Hi Opt II when spread is small? No ASC that is.
 
C

Counting_Is_Fun

Well-Known Member
Zexika said:
I'd love to spread that much, but I seen someone get the bar at table I'm playing with 1-8 spread sadly ._. I play greens, CVCX shows I'm doing about $23/hour with Hi Opt II no ASC, but then again sim I run doesn't seem to be on point. I'd really appreciate someone running one for me the right way.

Sim shows hi opt II > hilo/zen even in shoe games, even without ace sidecount, but I read zen being better than hi opt II without ASC. I don't know which to believe and whether to switch or not.

Btw, does HiLo perform better than Hi Opt II when spread is small? No ASC that is.
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You do not have a 1-8 spread if you are playing 2 hands of 1-4
 
KewlJ

KewlJ

Well-Known Member
Raven said:
Play all? In a shoe game?
Who does that bazillionaires?
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Who would do that? Well obviously players that only have one or two games near them. Also some of the older blackjack card counter AP's always hated the aggressive exits of negative counts. They grew up playing all and never switched.

Of course "our" Mr Schlesinger isn't one of those guys. This is one of many areas that he broke from the card counters of his day, demonstrated by his white rabbit approach. I have never really thought about it but Don doesn't get credit, or enough credit for this. I guess the other things that he does gets credit for, things like SCORE, N0, Illustrious 18 to name a few overshadow this one.

As blackjack condition began deteriorating in the late 1900's /early 2000's, Don's white rabbit or some variation of it, became the blueprint and inspiration for a whole new generation of card counters, myself included. Again, I never really though about where the inspiration of my own aggressive exit style of play came from, but when I stop and think about it, it is pretty clear I have Don Schlesinger to thank for it. So I will take this opportunity to formally do so. Thanks Don. :)
 
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D

DSchles

Well-Known Member
You're welcome. :)

Note that, for the record, the Optimal Departure study was a massive undertaking and strove to quantify the value of playing in the different styles. I don't think I ever wrote that any one of those approaches was actually the way I personally played the game, but it is nonetheless true that I did do an awful lot of aggressive backcounting. On the contrary, when I found truly outstanding games (and there were many in the day), I would just sit and play.

Those games included, but weren't limited to, the main pit game at Caesars with S17, DAS, and LS, with no heat, and the DD games at Riviera and Maxim, with the same rules.

Don
 
KewlJ

KewlJ

Well-Known Member
DSchles said:
You're welcome. :)

Note that, for the record, the Optimal Departure study was a massive undertaking and strove to quantify the value of playing in the different styles. I don't think I ever wrote that any one of those approaches was actually the way I personally played the game, but it is nonetheless true that I did do an awful lot of aggressive backcounting. On the contrary, when I found truly outstanding games (and there were many in the day), I would just sit and play.

Those games included, but weren't limited to, the main pit game at Caesars with S17, DAS, and LS, with no heat, and the DD games at Riviera and Maxim, with the same rules.

Don
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Don, you wouldn't believe the condition of my BJA3, or more accurately, what is left of it. Over the years, I took it apart, literally. I have parts here and there, parts that I decided were most important to me. Other parts have disappeared over time. I know I should purchase a replacement copy just for more organized reference.

So, while I don't have it handy, I remember the anecdote you told about walking the boardwalk in Atlantic City. I think you made some reference to having a comfortable pair of shoes. :) I took that, maybe incorrectly, to indicate that your own personal style of play did involve an aggressive departure point at least to some degree, sometimes more generally stated as some sort of "hit and run" style of play. Was this assumption incorrect?
 
L

LC Larry

Well-Known Member
During my counting days, leaving those negative count, 8 deckers was key. As someone that doesn't drink alcohol, this is where casinos with soda drink stations can be a huge benefit. Jump out, go hit the restroom, go get a drink, return and wait for next shoe or go to a different table.
 
D

DSchles

Well-Known Member
KewlJ said:
Don, you wouldn't believe the condition of my BJA3, or more accurately, what is left of it. Over the years, I took it apart, literally. I have parts here and there, parts that I decided were most important to me. Other parts have disappeared over time. I know I should purchase a replacement copy just for more organized reference.

So, while I don't have it handy, I remember the anecdote you told about walking the boardwalk in Atlantic City. I think you made some reference to having a comfortable pair of shoes. :) I took that, maybe incorrectly, to indicate that your own personal style of play did involve an aggressive departure point at least to some degree, sometimes more generally stated as some sort of "hit and run" style of play. Was this assumption incorrect?
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More likely referred to my style, similar to Vegas, of making a schedule of hotels to play in any given day, and then walking from one to the other, after a completed session.

Don
 
R

Raven

Well-Known Member
DSchles said:
More likely referred to my style, similar to Vegas, of making a schedule of hotels to play in any given day, and then walking from one to the other, after a completed session.

Don
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Lord Don can you clarify a little bit what you meant by "you could count on one hand how many times you raised a bet after a loss; winners parlay" etc? I had that line in my head one night when I was losing really bad.. it turned things around unbelievably and I ended up with my highest win in 5 years. I was never sure if my interpretation of it was correct but hot damn those cheques were stacked lol
 
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