Introducing myself

[MFong]

Hi all,

I found this site when I was researching on the Revere 14 count, and I'm really happy that I found these forums.

Just a little info about myself:
I went to my first casino in Michigan when I was 18 during my first year at college. Then I would go 2-3 times a year. However, I just came back from Las Vegas for the first time and just using my experience at the BJ tables I was showing my friends how to play, and we won some money. This inspired me to look into card counting. I picked up 2 books, Blackjack for Blood, and Knock-Out Blackjack.

Blackjack for Blood is a great book, and I've decided to use the Revere 14 count, because of the famous Dr. J's Parlay. However, I have no idea what APC means, because the book talks about how the woman uses the Revere 14 APC count.

As for the Revere 14 count, I think I'm doing ok. This is probably my 3rd day trying to learn the count.
- I would take 2 decks and just go through the entire deck, one card at a time indicating what card is worth what, out loud. Then in my head.
-Then I went through with the count, out loud, then in my head. So far... I can do it in about 3-4 minutes... heh. It's my 3rd day =)
-The next step, once I can go through a double deck fast enough, I'll learn the -6, Basic stratedy, and +6 tables.

So far I've been off by -1, or +1... or worse yet -7. haha Whenever I would practice I would have the TV on loud, and have my friends talk to me as I do it. Hopefully that's good.

My weakness is that I cannot, cannot add and subtract very easily. I studied Mechanical Engineering at school, and I could do all of the other stuff, but when it comes down to "simple" math in my opinion, I cannot add and subtract. It's really funny to watch me add -22 + 4. When I see that, I see "22-4" then I would add the negative sign in there.

Ok! Sorry about the long first message, hopefully I'll learn a lot more from here.

Also, one more thing: Is the Revere 14 count worth knowing? I really hope so, because I have it in grained in my head that a 5 is a +4.
And, my goal from this? I just want to use it to impress my friends, I'm not looking into big money or anything. I enjoy gambling, and it's fun trying to "beat" the game.

Thanks
~MFong

 

[callipygian]

My weakness is that I cannot, cannot add and subtract very easily. I studied Mechanical Engineering at school, and I could do all of the other stuff, but when it comes down to "simple" math in my opinion, I cannot add and subtract. It's really funny to watch me add -22 + 4. When I see that, I see "22-4" then I would add the negative sign in there.

(1) Welcome!

(2) You should move the arithmetic to something that is intuitive and easy for you. For example, I tend to view low cards as "bumps" on the felt and high cards as "sinks" into the table. As I scan a table, I "push" the bumps which fill the sinks, as if I were a bulldozer leveling the table, and this makes it easier for me to keep track of the count. I've also heard of people visualizing by color (high cards are one color and low cards are another). Don't feel constrained by the style that is presented in the book or on the boards, but remember to keep the underlying essence the same - sort of like how both inline and V-type engines run on the same fuel, but look very different on the outside.

 

[cardcounter0]

Maybe you should move to a level 1 count like KO or HiLo if addition/subtraction is such a problem. That way it is more like counting than adding (+1, -1, 0). If you are having trouble doing that, how are you going to keep track of indexes and BS ?

The slight gain from using a more complex count is quickly offset by mistakes.
You will actually do better with a more simple count played perfectly.

 

[EasyRhino]

I'll also vote for a simpler counting method if arithmetic is an issue. KO or Hi-lo.

 

[jack.jackson]

Hi all,

I found this site when I was researching on the Revere 14 count, and I'm really happy that I found these forums.

Just a little info about myself:
I went to my first casino in Michigan when I was 18 during my first year at college. Then I would go 2-3 times a year. However, I just came back from Las Vegas for the first time and just using my experience at the BJ tables I was showing my friends how to play, and we won some money. This inspired me to look into card counting. I picked up 2 books, Blackjack for Blood, and Knock-Out Blackjack.

Blackjack for Blood is a great book, and I've decided to use the Revere 14 count, because of the famous Dr. J's Parlay. However, I have no idea what APC means, because the book talks about how the woman uses the Revere 14 APC count.

As for the Revere 14 count, I think I'm doing ok. This is probably my 3rd day trying to learn the count.
- I would take 2 decks and just go through the entire deck, one card at a time indicating what card is worth what, out loud. Then in my head.
-Then I went through with the count, out loud, then in my head. So far... I can do it in about 3-4 minutes... heh. It's my 3rd day =)
-The next step, once I can go through a double deck fast enough, I'll learn the -6, Basic stratedy, and +6 tables.

So far I've been off by -1, or +1... or worse yet -7. haha Whenever I would practice I would have the TV on loud, and have my friends talk to me as I do it. Hopefully that's good.

My weakness is that I cannot, cannot add and subtract very easily. I studied Mechanical Engineering at school, and I could do all of the other stuff, but when it comes down to "simple" math in my opinion, I cannot add and subtract. It's really funny to watch me add -22 + 4. When I see that, I see "22-4" then I would add the negative sign in there.

Ok! Sorry about the long first message, hopefully I'll learn a lot more from here.

Also, one more thing: Is the Revere 14 count worth knowing? I really hope so, because I have it in grained in my head that a 5 is a +4.
And, my goal from this? I just want to use it to impress my friends, I'm not looking into big money or anything. I enjoy gambling, and it's fun trying to "beat" the game.

Thanks
~MFong

Hi, Im jj

The Revere 14 is a good count, but tough! APC=Advanced point count

2234210-2-3(4)

BC.994
PE.65
IC.83

This one is stronger:

2334320-1-4(4)

BC.995
PE.68
IC.91

This is one of the best ace-reckoned counts:

2234320-1-3-3

BC.995
PE.58
IC.75

You'll realize, that since single and doubledeck arent available like they used to be, you might of wished you used a ace-reckoned count for multiple decks, like RPC,wong-halves,zen or even this count that would be good for wongin-in positive counts>2223210-1-2-3

 

[MFong]

Thanks everybody for the warm welcome. I'm trying to set my account on here to receive emails for responses.

I think I will switch over to an easier count if I don't see an improvement on my part. For now, I don't have a set time on when I'm going gambling again. I just want to do it .. like a hobby or something. I hope this makes sense. However. . . I'm flying out to San Diego to visit some friends, and I saw a Harrah's out there. Has anybody been there before?

JJ: I use two decks because Bryce said that it was a good way to practice your counting. What's the reson for an Ace reckoned count? What does that do?

Maybe you should move to a level 1 count like KO or HiLo if addition/subtraction is such a problem. That way it is more like counting than adding (+1, -1, 0). If you are having trouble doing that, how are you going to keep track of indexes and BS ?

Posted by Cardcounter0

What does "keep track of indexes" mean, and what does BS mean? heh. I'm still learning here. =)

(2) You should move the arithmetic to something that is intuitive and easy for you. For example, I tend to view low cards as "bumps" on the felt and high cards as "sinks" into the table. As I scan a table, I "push" the bumps which fill the sinks, as if I were a bulldozer leveling the table, and this makes it easier for me to keep track of the count. I've also heard of people visualizing by color (high cards are one color and low cards are another). Don't feel constrained by the style that is presented in the book or on the boards, but remember to keep the underlying essence the same - sort of like how both inline and V-type engines run on the same fuel, but look very different on the outside.

Posted by callipygian

I understand what you mean. It'll deffinately be easier to do what you do with the sinks and bumps with an easier count.

As for the counting method. I think I'm still going to pursue the Revere count, unless I don't improve on it. Hopefully with enough effort and hard work, I can try and be efficient with it.

Thanks for the replies

~MFong

 

[callipygian]

What does "keep track of indexes" mean, and what does BS mean?

BS is basic strategy. The best engine for basic strategy can be found on this site (use the left-handed navigation pane).

Indexes (or indices) are counts at which you should deviate from basic strategy. This will add significantly to your expected value.

It'll deffinately be easier to do what you do with the sinks and bumps with an easier count.

I can't imagine doing it with a Level 2 count. I only use Hi-Lo, which is a Level 1 count.

P.S. in order to put the name of the person quoted into the quote itself, use

instead of

.

e.g.
{leftbracket}quote=Franklin Roosevelt{rightbracket}The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.{leftbracket}/quote{rightbracket}

equals

The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.

 

[Renzey]

My weakness is that I cannot, cannot add and subtract very easily. I studied Mechanical Engineering at school, and I could do all of the other stuff, but when it comes down to "simple" math in my opinion, I cannot add and subtract. It's really funny to watch me add -22 + 4. When I see that, I see "22-4" then I would add the negative sign in there.

Whichever system you use, crossing over from positive to negative should be easier for you if you consider your starting point as "100" rather than "0". Then a -2 card would move your running count to "98" rather than "-2".
Thus, a Revere 14 layout of:

3...7....9...10...10.....5....2 would run:
2...3....1...98...95....99...1,

requiring no negative/positive crossovers. Just call any "0" count "zip".

And yes, I think you should choose a simpler system.

 

[jack.jackson]

JJ: I use two decks because Bryce said that it was a good way to practice your counting. What's the reson for an Ace reckoned count? What does that do?

Ya 2 decks are ideal, for starters.

The Ace-Reckoned counts, eliminates the mental exertion for side-counting aces. Also, they will be more accurate, for betting purposes. The Ace side count introduces errors for betting, because you hardly ever are dividing by exactly 1/4 deck. Using a L4 and side-counting aces will wear you out. Dont forget you'll be counting in increments as high as 8, when counting in pairs.

Whatever system you choose, heres a couple tips.

1) Learn the two-card combinations cold.
2) Visualize the RC, like-21,-13,-5,<0>+3,+11,+19,+27,+35(L4)
a) (or howevers comfortable)This does not require cards
3) Practice converting RC into TC)This does not require cards
4) Learn most important indices
5) Now put it all together

If you plan on playing mostly DD, then Ace-neutral counts, might be the way to go. Good luck on whatever you decide.

Mans greatest obstacle in life, is himself.

 

[zengrifter]

I think I will switch over to an easier count if I don't see an improvement on my part. For now, I don't have a set time on when I'm going gambling again. I just want to do it .. like a hobby or something.

The RAPC (14-count) is OBSOLETE and not worth the effort. Switch now to a
level-2 with Ace-reckon: Either ZEN, Mentor, or RPC, perhaps. zg

Ps - Read the ZGI below for more data on Revere.

 

[BJinNJ]

Make 'em buy your book, Fred

You're giving away your secrets! :laugh:

BJinNJ

 

[jimpenn]

New Counter

If I read you post correctly you do not know Basic Strategy. The first article you should read, mentioned in an earlier thread I read today was "Counting 101." It is listed on the left side of forum. Read the article if your serious.

This is the first post I have ever read from a poster that was attempting to learn to count without mastering BS.

 

[cardcounter0]

If I read you post correctly you do not know Basic Strategy. The first article you should read, mentioned in an earlier thread I read today was "Counting 101." It is listed on the left side of forum. Read the article if your serious.

This is the first post I have ever read from a poster that was attempting to learn to count without mastering BS.

Welcome to these boards! LOL

The steps seem to be:
1. "Learn" to count.
2. Go to casino.
3. Learn Basic Strategy
4. Go to casino.
5. Learn Basic Strategy departures.
6. Go to casino.
7. Learn how much to bet.
8. Figure out this is all too hard.
:laugh:

 

[callipygian]

1. "Learn" to count.
2. Go to casino.
3. Learn Basic Strategy
4. Go to casino.
5. Learn Basic Strategy departures.
6. Go to casino.
7. Learn how much to bet.
8. Figure out this is all too hard.

You forgot:

0. Go to casino and win a little bit of money.

or

0. Watch "21".

 

[Traveller]

M Wong

Hi, first thing, forget everything you have learnt so far.
Now you need to learn basic Stategy http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bjbse.php

Next and only when you know basic stategy perfectly you need to learn a basic count, Hi Lo is easiest and more than adequate. This count tells you when to bet bigger and is the fundamental part of beating the casino at BJ. On this point, i agree with Renzey your starting point should be 100 as this will prevent you from reversing the +- count in your mind. As the low cards come out the +1, +2 +3 will be the same as if you started at 0 but as the count goes neg upon high card removal the count will go 3,2,1,0,99,98,97.

Practice counting here http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bst/bst.htm


Once you have learnt how to keep an accurate runnning count you then need to learn how to work out the True Count. To do this, estimate approximately how many decks have been dealt by looking at the discard tray and thus subtract this from 6 (6 deck game) this will tell you how many decks are remaining. Dividing your running count by the number of decks remaining gives you the true count. You dont need to do this to decimal places just appox. Eg Running Count 11, 2.5 decks gone = 3.5 decks left, therefore True count is 11/3.5 = just over 3.
That is as accurate as you need to be. You will need to go to the casino to practice this, unless you get 6 decks at home.

Once you can do this without losing the count you can then learn the strategy index numbers from 0 to +6 the neg indices are not as important as the + indices as you will only have minimum bet out when they occur. Go to the casino and stand behind a table and practice. When you can do this accurately you can come back here and one of the guys will help you to work out a bet spread according to your bankroll.

Only when you have done all this should you go to the casino and bet real money.

T.

 

[MFong]

The RAPC (14-count) is OBSOLETE and not worth the effort. Switch now to a
level-2 with Ace-reckon: Either ZEN, Mentor, or RPC, perhaps. zg

Ps - Read the ZGI below for more data on Revere.

I realized that I had no idea what I got myself into. I flipped through the pages in Bryce's book, and I started to learn the Omega II Basic count. I had a much better time with it. I'm much faster with this count, than the Revere one. However, I tried to count by using a BJ game I have, and I failed miserably. I'm definitely gong to try starting my count at 100 and see where that takes me. Also, I've been trying to count cards under a week now. haha. So I just need to give it some time and see how I do. I'm in no rush.

I saw the Zen and Mentor counts, and it looks like the Mentor count is very similar to the Omega Count, except that the 3 is a +2, and the A is a -1.

If I read you post correctly you do not know Basic Strategy. The first article you should read, mentioned in an earlier thread I read today was "Counting 101." It is listed on the left side of forum. Read the article if your serious.

This is the first post I have ever read from a poster that was attempting to learn to count without mastering BS.

I know most of BS, except for what to do with soft hands, but the real reason why I want to count cards before mastering BS is because I think counting cards is harder than studying a table. I think once I sort of know how to count cards faster and more efficient, and then I can stare at a table and study it.

Also thanks to Traveller for that link you gave me about helping me with counting cards.

Thanks to everybody for replying to this thread. Again, I just want to stress that I've been learning under a week, and I had no idea that the Revere 14 count was way too advanced for a beginner. I didn't want to rub anybody the wrong way like I was a cocky guy or something.

I have 2 questions though. Whenever I flip the cards over one at a time I may see a "7", which is a +1, however when my count is 12 or something, I add 7 instead of 1. Is there any advice on how to ignore doing that? Getting mixed up with the actual card for its value.

My 2nd question. How important is the true count? The reason why I'm asking this is because there are 3 tables, the -6, BS, and the +6 count tables. If my count is 18, and there are 3 decks left, then the TC is 6. But my count has never gone higher than 20, so the TC rarely goes above 6? Maybe I'm just interpreting the True Count wrong. Then again I've only used 2 decks. Another example is this, my count is 12, and there are 5 decks left, then the TC is 2.xx, so in reality I shouldn't be betting that much, because the TC is 2 something?

Thanks again for the all the help from you guys,
~MFong

 

[zengrifter]

I saw the Zen and Mentor counts, and it looks like the Mentor count is very similar to the Omega Count, except that the 3 is a +2, and the A is a -1.

AO2 is ALSO OBSOLETE.

ZEN is nearly identical except the Ace and 9 tags are reversed:

tags 2-A -

AO2: 1122210-1-2-0
ZEN: 11222100-2-1

 

[cardcounter0]

The A02 has two problems: It counts the 9 as negative, which messes up the accurancy of insurance bets which is one of the most profitable plays you can make. It also does not count the ace which is good for playing decisions, but horrible for betting. In modern shoe games, betting is much more important than playing, so a count that uses the Ace is better.

Notice that the Zen count corrects both these problems.

How important is the true count? Not very important unless you are planning on using your counting of cards to make betting or playing decisions, since everything is based on the true count.
:laugh:

You are correct on your observations, less than 1 hand out of 100 will have a true count greater than +6. That is why knowing what to do when the count is +10, or planning on betting $X dollars at a count of +9 is pretty useless, it almost never happens.

 

[callipygian]

I know most of BS, except for what to do with soft hands, but the real reason why I want to count cards before mastering BS is because I think counting cards is harder than studying a table. I think once I sort of know how to count cards faster and more efficient, and then I can stare at a table and study it.

It may be true that learning basic strategy is easier, but learning basic strategy is also far more valuable.

This chart shows the relative effects of making counting mistakes versus making playing mistakes. As you can see, not playing basic strategy will cost you far more than not counting correctly.

http://www.blackjackincolor.com/blackjackerrors2.htm

Absolutely learn basic strategy first - and by learn it, I mean sit through enough hands that you don't need to think about the decision. If you can't decide in half a second whether you should be hitting or doubling A3 vs. 4, you don't know basic strategy well enough.

 

[MFong]

AO2 is ALSO OBSOLETE.

ZEN is nearly identical except the Ace and 9 tags are reversed:

tags 2-A -

AO2: 1122210-1-2-0
ZEN: 11222100-2-1

Thanks for the Zen count. I'll learn that now. Good thing I'm not very good at any of the counts yet. , I bet it would be really hard to learn a new count if you're so good at another one.

The A02 has two problems: It counts the 9 as negative, which messes up the accurancy of insurance bets which is one of the most profitable plays you can make. It also does not count the ace which is good for playing decisions, but horrible for betting. In modern shoe games, betting is much more important than playing, so a count that uses the Ace is better.

Notice that the Zen count corrects both these problems.

How important is the true count? Not very important unless you are planning on using your counting of cards to make betting or playing decisions, since everything is based on the true count.
:laugh:

You are correct on your observations, less than 1 hand out of 100 will have a true count greater than +6. That is why knowing what to do when the count is +10, or planning on betting $X dollars at a count of +9 is pretty useless, it almost never happens.

Thanks for that, I just realized that if the count was +10 and it was 12 cards deep, then obviously the shoe would not be filled with 10s. 10/6 = 1.xx. That makes a lot more sense now. I would judge how much of the shoe is left from the discard pile, correct? How do I know how many decks a casino uses? Do I ask the dealer?

It may be true that learning basic strategy is easier, but learning basic strategy is also far more valuable.

This chart shows the relative effects of making counting mistakes versus making playing mistakes. As you can see, not playing basic strategy will cost you far more than not counting correctly.

http://www.blackjackincolor.com/blackjackerrors2.htm

Absolutely learn basic strategy first - and by learn it, I mean sit through enough hands that you don't need to think about the decision. If you can't decide in half a second whether you should be hitting or doubling A3 vs. 4, you don't know basic strategy well enough.

I can see how that would save somebody. I bet a counter would lose count, and they would have to rely on the tables. I think I have to re-think my priorities for learning this.

~MFong