It's a sad, sad day for me...

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ThreeLeggedHorse

New Member
#1
#1
Hiya guys, I am not new to counting I have just never taken it seriously (I gamble in other areas) but I found this forum and was inspired by all the knowledge I found, so set about trying to learn a count. After much consideration I settled for the Mentor count and started counting down deck after deck but during one of my adventures into this forum I found posts about counting cards in the UK and it has totally killed my enthusiasm. There was one post that said it was 'break-even at best'. What is the true state of card counting in the UK? Can it still be done? I need answers from experienced people like yourselves so I don't waste my time on a pointless exercise as I am unwilling to travel out of the UK just to get a decent game of blackjack.

Thanks in advance guys.
 
Warlord

Warlord

Well-Known Member
#2
#2
ThreeLeggedHorse said:
Hiya guys, I am not new to counting I have just never taken it seriously (I gamble in other areas) but I found this forum and was inspired by all the knowledge I found, so set about trying to learn a count. After much consideration I settled for the Mentor count and started counting down deck after deck but during one of my adventures into this forum I found posts about counting cards in the UK and it has totally killed my enthusiasm. There was one post that said it was 'break-even at best'. What is the true state of card counting in the UK? Can it still be done? I need answers from experienced people like yourselves so I don't waste my time on a pointless exercise as I am unwilling to travel out of the UK just to get a decent game of blackjack.

Thanks in advance guys.
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Try here.

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I

InPlay

Banned
#4
#4
ThreeLeggedHorse said:
Hiya guys, I am not new to counting I have just never taken it seriously (I gamble in other areas) but I found this forum and was inspired by all the knowledge I found, so set about trying to learn a count. After much consideration I settled for the Mentor count and started counting down deck after deck but during one of my adventures into this forum I found posts about counting cards in the UK and it has totally killed my enthusiasm. There was one post that said it was 'break-even at best'. What is the true state of card counting in the UK? Can it still be done? I need answers from experienced people like yourselves so I don't waste my time on a pointless exercise as I am unwilling to travel out of the UK just to get a decent game of blackjack.

Thanks in advance guys.
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What happen to the other leg on your horse ?
 
UK-21

UK-21

Well-Known Member
#6
#6
I'm very flattered !

I'm very flattered, as you've quoted a line from a very recent posting of mine.

"Breakeven at best" ?? Something I wrote and a personal view. It's really subjective, and down to the individual. If you're willing to play BJ at times when there aren't many people around (2.00pm-5.00pm during the week?), can spread large (1-16) and are prepared to play with a higher risk of ruin, there's no doubt that a six deck, ENHC game is beatable and has a +EV.

But . . . if you're like me and you play at places where the tables are crowded / fully occupied, deliberately pursue a lower risk strategy, have a limited bankroll that only funds a 1-8 spread (in order to provide an acceptable RoR) and don't really have the opportunity to play that often (thereby taking a long time to reach the "long term") then it won't ever be anything other than a hobby. I've come to this conclusion over about the last six months having studied the game, read a lot and done the sums. Other people may disagree.

As I've said to others, if you're aiming to make money playing cards, get yourself into the poker room. But go well prepared, and keep an eye out for all of the semaphore and nose scratching!

Good luck.

Newb99
 
HarryKuntz

HarryKuntz

Well-Known Member
#7
#7
Cheer up horse!

In the UK, a three legged horse is a term for a horse that has no chance of winning a race, i.e. "I had £50 on stallion to win but it turned out to be a three legged horse" or "it turned out to be a donkey", is also often used. I hope this doesn't reflect your BJ Skills horse?


The UK games are very beatable, The rules aren't good with no hole card, no surrender & only even money for insurance. However, because the UK casinos are naive compared to our cousins across the pond, you can get away with bigger spreads and exploit other advantages, which are a result of badly trained dealers, pit personnel and managers. Many games are a lot more beatable then they might first appear, you just need to keep your eyes open and take full advantage of the various opportunities and gifts on offer. I can't wait for the upcoming influx of larger casinos which have now been approved across the UK. Where are all these additional dealers going to come from and who's going to train them? The UK will soon be wide open for the taking! :)
 
UK-21

UK-21

Well-Known Member
#8
#8
HarryKuntz said:
I can't wait for the upcoming influx of larger casinos which have now been approved across the UK.
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Er, sorry . . . Gordon Brown called all bets off. No Vegas style, mega-casinos are on the cards in the UK anymore - at least for the time being.
 
UK-21

UK-21

Well-Known Member
#9
#9
BJ in the UK, playing ENHC rules.

Something to qualify my earlier "breakeven at best" comment, which I hope brings some perspective to it.

I've just spent a bit more time throwing some numbers onto a spreadsheet I've created - basically it crunches the win/lose scenario at different levels of house/player edge. It's not perfect, as it uses these to estimate the percentage of wins/losses and doesn't take into account pushes (I've assumed that these will favour the house and player equally, although I strongly suspect they favour the house more).

The number that falls out of the bottom of it all is an EV (?) per 100 hands of 1.658 units. Based upon playing with units of £3.00 (a common table min in the UK outside of London) this return represents £4.97 in pounds and pence, which incidently is less than the national minimum wage. Assuming 70 hands per hour at a crowded table it falls to 1.1606 units or £3.48.

These figures also assume error free play. One miscount per hour, resulting in losing a hand at 4 units rather than 2, or 8 rather than 4 (assuming a 1-8 ramp) and the finely balanced +EV is lost and the game becomes a loss maker. I certainly miscount at times. A greater return can of course be achieved by playing with higher value units and/or with bigger spreads - although this comes at a cost of the extra £££s needed to counter the RoR, and any counting errors having a relatively greater impact.

In other posts on the forum I've read that 2 units per hour is a fair expectation for a perfect player, based on US rules, so my calcs don't look out of place. Would anyone like to add anything ?

Newb99

PS - I'm currently learning to play poker !
 
HarryKuntz

HarryKuntz

Well-Known Member
#10
#10
newb99 said:
Er, sorry . . . Gordon Brown called all bets off. No Vegas style, mega-casinos are on the cards in the UK anymore - at least for the time being.
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It's only the supercasinos that were called off, the go ahead was given for many additional large and small casinos to be built. Most of these will be opening their doors in 2009 - 2011.
 
UK-21

UK-21

Well-Known Member
#11
#11
Hopefully one will open closer to home - at present it's a 100 mile round trip to play on a felt table (other than the one I have at home).

Out of interest, what did you mean by "the UK games are very beatable"?
 
HarryKuntz

HarryKuntz

Well-Known Member
#12
#12
newb99 said:
Hopefully one will open closer to home - at present it's a 100 mile round trip to play on a felt table (other than the one I have at home).
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This depends on where you live, I believe the casinos will be built in the following areas:-

Large Casinos:- Manchester, Great Yarmouth, Hull, Newham, Middlesbrough, Solihull, Milton Keynes, Leeds and Southampton.

Small Casinos:- North East Somerset, Dumfries and Galloway, East Lindsey, Luton, Scarborough, Swansea, Torbay and Wolverhampton.


newb99 said:
Out of interest, what did you mean by "the UK games are very beatable"?
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Yes, they are very beatable, reread my previous post for some hints.
 
UK-21

UK-21

Well-Known Member
#13
#13
????? We'll, you can't be referring to hole carding sloppy dealers, as we don't have them (hole cards that is) in the UK. Tracking a weak shuffle must be what you're referring to - which having seen the young ladies shuffling up on the odd occasions I get to play I can believe is exploitable by those prepared to put in the practice.

Interesting list of places. Newham? Know the area well as I lived there for many years. Can't think why the local planners would think a casino will complement the area. Any idea what constitutes "large" and "small" ?

:)
 
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