Knock Out Black Jack

G

GlenRuss

Member
My wife and kids got me Knock Out Black Jack by Vancura and Fuchs, for fathers day. I read it last night from cover to cover. I can't wait to practice it on my table in the basement, then eventually the casino. Has anyone used KO in actual casino play? I've used hi/lo in the past with decent results, I just kept losing count when I had to convert to the true count, or I was afraid that I lost it, or didn't do it right. This system doesn't have that conversion, I'm pretty excited about it.

The book itself is pretty good. Some of it seems more complicated than it has to be, but I guess they have to fill up some pages. I heard about the book here when I mentioned I was looking to find a way out of the conversion. So I'm going to give it a try. I'll practice for a few months, then try it in A.C. as I live in N.Y. So, I just wanted to know if anyone has used KO, been successful, especially with multi-deck shoes???
 
a friend of mine uses it

GlenRuss said:
My wife and kids got me Knock Out Black Jack by Vancura and Fuchs, for fathers day. I read it last night from cover to cover. I can't wait to practice it on my table in the basement, then eventually the casino. Has anyone used KO in actual casino play? I've used hi/lo in the past with decent results, I just kept losing count when I had to convert to the true count, or I was afraid that I lost it, or didn't do it right. This system doesn't have that conversion, I'm pretty excited about it.

The book itself is pretty good. Some of it seems more complicated than it has to be, but I guess they have to fill up some pages. I heard about the book here when I mentioned I was looking to find a way out of the conversion. So I'm going to give it a try. I'll practice for a few months, then try it in A.C. as I live in N.Y. So, I just wanted to know if anyone has used KO, been successful, especially with multi-deck shoes???
Click to expand...

And she does pretty well with shoes. It's a good system and I think you'll do just fine with it, go for it.
 
I just switched

Hey GlenRuss your situation sounds familiar. I was using a balanced count but I would often forget the running count when switching to the true count. So two weeks ago I started learning KO. I'm really liking it so far it is much easier than Hi-Lo. I haven't used it in the casino yet.

I've run into a couple of problems so far. One is that I now have to count the 7's which confused me at first but with practice I am getting the hang of it. The other problem I'm also having is I practice against 8 decks and with the count starting at minus 28 I find I am getting confused a lot. I'm not used to counting those large numbers which have extra syllables like mi-thir-ty-se-ven. You never count 4 and 5 syllables in Hi-Lo consistently and this has really slowed down and confused my counting which has caused me a few mistakes.

However I am optimistic and with practice I will get better. I am also considering customizing the count so I'm not in the negative numbers too often. Hopefully we can continue this thread going with any questions or insights we or others might have about KO.
 
Hey Systems Trader I was thinking the same thing about the larger numbers. I was also thinking of some kind of conversion. Maybe we could work on it together, or at least compare notes. We do have to remember that the key count and the pivot points will change acordingly if we change the IRC value.

I agree the 7s are a little tricky when we've trained to count them as 0. Like you said, it'll take some practice. I started the count down deck exersize and got a perfect 0 in 37 seconds, then realized I didn't count the sevens, as I was trying to practice KO, I should have goten +4

So let me know what you think.
 
SystemsTrader: Customizing the count was, of course, recommended by the authors for people in just your situation, not wanting to deal with the negative numbers. Just one caution though: If you always play with the same number of decks you'll probably be okay, but it strikes me that if you switch from 6 decks to 4 decks or 2 decks it might get a little confusing.

GlenRuss: I've been using KO for about 23 months now, about 6 hours per weekend, playing red to low green, at mostly 6-deck tables. When I started my bankroll was down about $300. After some swings that were several thousand dollars in amplitude, I bottomed out at being DOWN $4,202.50 on 10/31/04. On 5/8/05 I was UP $1,417.50. Currently I am DOWN $1,517.50, mostly due to a couple of disastrous sessions at a $25 table.

So, does KO work? Considering the amount of luck involved in the game, and how long it takes for any small advantage to manifest itself, I have to say that it may be too soon to tell!

I think you should do what I do: Assume that it works.
 
Adjusted IRC

I've adjusted my IRC to start at 0. I've started practicing today and already I find it more comfortable. Most of my playing will be against 8 decks.

Canceler- As for the betting strategy,while practising I've found you can have an extended period of being between the key and pivot counts. If using a 1-10 spread the KO authors suggest and betting progression of:
Key count -7 -6 -5 -4 -3 -2 -1 0 +1 +2 +3 +4 Pivot count
Units 1 2 2 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

Will the casino find this suspicious if I'm constantly changing my unit size between 1 to 10 units during this period. Especially if you go from betting $5 to $15 to $35 than back down to $25 and so on. Do you use this unit sizing or some other method?
 
SystemsTrader:

I don't follow the recommended betting progression exactly, I use it more as a general guideline.

I tend to increase my bet using only chips that are already in the betting circle. So I only increase after a win, and then by no more than doubling it. I only decrease my bet after a loss, and then only by about 50%. I'll drop from one green to two reds, or three reds to one red. (Lots of rounding involved with that 50%!)

The aim of all this is to make my bet size changes seem natural, something that someone who isn't counting might do.

Also, if the count gets to like +8, for example, I sometimes go to a 1-15 spread, instead of the recommended 1-10.

You asked what I do, and I told you. But I'm actually not satisfied with it. I should probably try to be more aggressive in raising my bet when the count calls for it. Something for me to work on.
 
Adding Side Counts

I havn't read the book yet plan on buying it in the next couple of days but I have started learning the count which I picked up from the website and from kevin blackwood's book play blackjack like a pro. my question is... does the book talk about or has anyone thought about adding side counts to KO to make it more accurate. (I'm new to this so my whole view on side counts may be wrong) but wouldn't knowing how many aces are left give you more of an edge just like it does with some of the other high level counts.

thanks,

Jim :confused:
 
No, the book doesn't mention side counts. My only comment would be that one of the main features of KO is its simplicity, and if you are going to complicate it with a side count, maybe some other system would be better.
 
my experiences

so glad I found this forum as I purchased the KO book about a month ago and have been practicing using one of the more popular blackjack software programs. not sure what the policy is on talking about software programs so for the sake of sounding like a salesman will not mention it.

before I started learning KO I had been practicing a level 2 system. it's not even listed in the major strategies and is not considered very reliable so I was encouraged to try KO. what a difference that has made. have not used it at the casinos yet but I am progressing very well with the program. I too have experienced many of the problems many of you have mentioned so I will share some of the ways I have addressed those issues and then I have a few questions/concerns of my own.

in regards to the IRC I never liked the idea of starting with a negative count so I immediately adjusted it to start at 0. I have been practicing with a 6 deck shoe, since it seems that is the most common of the shoe games. with an IRC at 0, that made the key count at 16 and the pivot at 24. not too bad and not too many different numbers to count. but then going to minus counts got really confusing and it tended to slow me down to the point it was hard to keep up. I agree that the extra syllables make it difficult, or even saying minus to yourself seems awkward. but what I find is most difficult is changing the way you count when in negative territory. you get accoustomed to subtracting your count whenever you see high cards but then when you get into negative numbers, now you have to add the high cards, even though technically you are subtracting. about 2 weeks ago I decided that the best way to get around that was to change the IRC to 20. that makes the key count 36 and the pivot at 44. I resisted changing at first because I didn't want to practice counting backwards with so many numbers but I am so glad I changed because the count rarely ever gets below 10. so dealing in negatives is a thing of the past for me. also if the count ever gets so low it's in negative territory that would certainly be a good time to leave the table. as far as the problem with syllables, part of my practice routine involves counting backwards from 50 to 0. I do it by even/odd numbers and then by ones. I know it sounds elementary but after practicing it again and again it becomes almost rote. and the good thing is I never have to worry about changing my method of counting. high numbers are ALWAYS subtracted and lows are ALWAYS added.

I know what you mean about getting confused in parts of the book. I skimmed through it at first, just wanted to get the idea of the system so I could start practicing and then read at my leasure. but the parts about the matrix charts, I had a hard time figuring out, and could never understand what they were saying about the pivot point, even though I read every part listed in the index about 3 times. so I did the only intelligent thing and read it from cover to cover and it was very easy to follow and understand. anyway it's good to know that I'm not the only one who was a bit confused. I was beginning to question my reading ability.

as far as the matrix goes, if anyone has used the system in a casino maybe you can help me with this one. it seems, and maybe it's just my imagination, that when I get past the pivot point I tend to bust out too much. I know the matrix has you stand on 16 vs 9 or 10, 15 vs 10 etc..... but what about times like 14 vs 10, or 15 vs 9. I find myself wanting to stand on those situations. I guess it's like with basic strategy and hitting 16 vs 10, trusting that the experts have done all the math. I understand all of that and I also understand that KO's strong point is bet sizing and not playing strategy but is there anyone out there who has these concerns?

hope this helps.

mike
 
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Thanks for sharing your experiences so far L62. I think its ok to talk software as long as you're not spamming everyone. I would like to now which software you or others are using? I am currently just using the strategy trainer on this site but you cannot check if you have counting errors. I was wondering if anyone has tried the Training camp version 2 on the http://www.koblackjack.com (Archive copy) site since its designed for KO. Is it worth getting? I should probably just get it anyway since its only $29.95 that's not a lot to lose even if its lousy but I wouldn't mind a few opinions first!

I'm using zero for my IRC for all deck sizes as I'm comfortable with counting in the low negatives since it's mostly just 2 syllables and the count never seems to drop to -10. I'm going to try your exercise of counting down from 50 to 0, I think it will really help.

I didn't find the matrix that confusing but I did have to really think about it. I have also noticed busting out a lot at high counts but you've got to stick with the math. This is just an observation so far as I have not run enough sample hands yet but I've noticed that as the count climbs really high I tend to lose more money and as the count lowers I make more. Although this seems odd I guess it makes sense because as the count climbs its because all the small cards are coming out and as the count lowers the high card are showing.

I've started a simulated account with $5000 and using $5 units and a 1-10 spread against 8 decks which I will be mostly playing against in my local casinos. I will let everyone know over time how its going and if KO is working for me. My goal is to get ahead by 500 units before actually going live in a casino. So far playing 418 hands after 6 shoes I'm down 9.5 units for a lose of $47.50!
 
system trader,

the software I have been using is the casino verite full version which cost 90 dollars. it was certainly not a waste of money. they have a lite version for 47 dollars and I compared the two. there are some differences but as far as I can tell the only addition, considering the features I use, is that in the full version you have a selection of more than the basic table layout. for example, you can have it where you are seated in the middle, or at first and third base and the graphics are setup to give you that look. that may not be a big deal, but more importantly for me is that with the optional table layout I can have a full table of 7 players where on the basic layout, although it is more realistic, you can only have a max of 4 players. but regardless of which version, you can control the speed of the play, deal, etc..... and they have popups that tell you what the count is. you can also input any strategy. they include most of the popular systems, including KO, although for copyright concerns they have renamed it OK. and you can adjust to any IRC you want to use, input the plays for the different matrix....A, B, etc... another good thing is that it is a very small program, not even a mb and performs very well. I have mine on a 5 year old dell that I won't even connect to the internet because it is so slow, but the program works wonderful and doesn't overload the computer with senseless graphics. it is very fast......trust me, you will never be able to master the max speed on the system, and of course no dealer could ever deal that fast anyway. so it is equiped to handle your counting speed progressions. also, the owner is very quick to get back with you via email if you have any questions or concerns. I hope that helps.

let us know how your experiment goes with the bankroll. yes, I agree we need to trust the math etc...

you know the software out there is good but I still use the old fashioned method of using a deck of cards, playing the dealer and dealing the hands and counting as part of my practice. I think that is necessary because another challenge is counting while at the same time counting the value of my hand. playing dealer with real cards is the best way I know to develop that skill. would appreciate yours or anyone else's input on how you handle that part of the game. when it gets to my hand I adjust the count and then count the hand in that order with each new card. I have heard some people add the cards to the running count only after they are finished with the hand. thats ok if you only need one more card but when I need something like 5-7 cards there is no way I could count all those before the dealer took them up for a bust, or if no bust then I would get behind if I was not sitting at 3rd base. so I just adjust the count with each card I am dealt. any ideas?
 
I read it and it is like my bible for BJ-Questions. I also read a the best German book on earth (I'm German :)) and also Play like the Pros by Kevin W.

What I would like to learn just to see the differences is another unbalanced system and I guess I'm gonna choose Ken Ustons unbalanced one.

But definitely go for it - it's a really great method to make money and it is easy to learn and use!!!
 
Ho Ho Ko.

Hey you thread-heads. Just read all your takes on KO Blackjack. One thing I have notice is everyone goes through the same stuff. But check this out. I'm Number dyslexic. But, one of the reasons I got involved with counting was the same reason I got involved with climbing...Screw the fear, make it work. Of the three systems I have used, (Hi-Lo Omega, and, well, just good basic blackjack) all the things every one has talked about, I have gone through: loosing the running count, quickly trying to get a true count, figuring out a betting system that won't kill me or give me away, and sometimes going from a positive to a negative, I forget about the zero zone, and my count goes off by one, which really isn't killer, but it sometimes is just enough for me, then one thing leads to another and I'm just playing basic blackjack, which is OK too. Not great, not perfect, but doable. I am going to order KO, giive it shot and see how it goes. Read and worked Blackjack for blood, and also Wong's, Professional BlackJack. I even bought Ed's book, which was some pretty cool reading taking into consideration it was written in '63. I'll keep ya posted.
Later Kids
Town Hall
 
I use KO and I've customized my count like this.

For 8 deck, my IRC=28, KC=50, P=60
From 50 to 52 I bet 2 units, 53=3, 54=4 and so on.

For 6 deck, IRC=36, KC=52, P=60
At 52, I bet 2 units, 53=3, 54=4 and so on.

I found this to be the easiest because of no negatives and it makes betting easy. 50 and 60 are easy to remember and the pivot point stays the same in both cases. Insurance should be taken at 59.
 
@LeonShuffle:

Why so hugh numbers?

Single Deck:
IRC 20
Key 22
Ins. 23

20 21 22 23 24
1x 1x 2x 4x 5x

6 Deck:
IRC 5
Key 21
Ins. 29

21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30
1x 2x 2x 3x 4x 5x 6x 8x 9x 10x
 
I set it that high so I never have to deal with negative numbers. And the key and pivot points are convenient as well as the betting scheme (i.e. 52=2, 53=3, 54=4).
 
Simulated account

I just thought I would update everyone on my simulated account. With a $5000 bankroll and $5 units against 8 decks I have played 3996 hands and so far I am down $1027 or 205.5 units. So far I'm not too impressed with KO but I realise I still have only played a small sample of hands however the account is down over 20% so far. I will keep at it and I will see if this system is worth trying in the casino or not. I certainly won't try it live unless I can make money at it in practise.
 
I use Ko Blackjack exclusively and I don't modify the IRC. For me it's pretty good for two reasons. You don't have to worry about the true count because it always equals the running count, and you give up very little theoretical gain because of its simplicity. I do use it at casinos, so far i've played about 10000 hands on six decks with $10 units and i'm up about 5 grand. In my opinion the system works beautifally. The only thing I don't like about is that every once in a while I'll run into a deck that skyrockets pass the key count and i still will get bum hands. But so far it's only happened about 4 times but i've lost enough on those rouge shoes.
 
rz,

that was my initial concern too. skyrocket counts and what to do with all the stiff hands. it seems to even out on the practice software and fortunately have not been burned the few times I have used it in the casinos. we have to trust the math but assuming you are using ko preferred you can tweek for those high counts by checking the "full indexes" in the apendix. it gives indexes for standing on 14 vs 10, 16 vs 8 & A, you probabaly will rarely need them in the casinos but not much more to memorize and ease some of the stress at those killer counts.

mike
 
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