legends

[Lonesome Gambler]

I'd say 99% of all who do play the FP use it to suppliment their regular slot play, not to exploit it.

This is the key to the whole thing. It's great marketing by the casino, and it's great EV for you. And like Shad said, most FP must be played through once in order to cash. This very rarely turns into a fun situation where you find playable FP still on a machine where a civilian couldn't figure out how to cash it once it was loaded.

 

[assume_R]

You have to learn about the various forms of free play. There are comps that you earn and there are marketing comps. One has little to nothing to do with the other.
I'm going to use Harrahs system as an example, but other casinos will pretty much follow the same general pattern.
You join the players club and the casino starts tracking your slot play.
Harrahs give 1 Reward Credit for every $5 you cycle thru a slot machine.
If you are playing a one coin $1 machine , you are betting $1 a spin and every five spins($5 thru), you earn a Reward Credit( ie RCs). Wins and losses don't come into the formula.
Lets say you play 100 spins. You have earned 20 RCs. Your wins or losses are irrevelant. Lets say you play for an hour and end up with 500 spins. You have earned 100 RCs. 100 RCs equals $1 in comps.
Doesn't sound like much, does it?
Most Harrahs machines offer what is known as Bonus Rewards(BRs). These kick in mysteriously and all I can tell you is as you earn more Reward Creidts in a day, your Bonus Rewards grow at a much bigger pace.
Here is an example. Your first 50 RCs earns you almost no BRs, but at 100 RCs, you'll have earned Brs at about a 1-1 pace. 100 RCs in a day will generally get you around 100BRs, as well.
Now, your play has earned you $2 in comps, rather than $1. Small improvement. But now you start earning BRs at a much faster pace. Your next 100 RCs might earn you 500 BRs, so by doubling your play, you now have earned not $2 in comps, but $2 worth of RCs plus $6 in BRs.
Your comp balance is now $8. Still no big deal.
Now your players club info is forwarded to the Marketing Department. Their job is to get you to return to the casino, so they send you some offers to entice you back. you are pretty much unknown to them so they send you a low ball offer of $15 in free slot play.
Now, your end results of having earned 200 RCs is not the $2 in comps you expected, but $8 in comps plus an additional $15 in free slot play.
In most cases, comps you get from marketing offers will dwarf the comps you actually earn on the machines.

I know this is just a toy example, but it seems like it would be tough to get above break even.

In this example, your 200 RCs equal 8 + .9 * 15 = $21.50. of EV.

Yet to get that 200 RC's, you put let's say $500 of action through the machine. Which is -$50 EV. So until your bonus credits start kicking in, it's pretty -EV.

And how much of your own money do you really need to put in per day to get those BR's? $1000 in action is -$100 EV, so you'd need to get at least $110 worth of comped slot play to make it worth you putting $1,000 through the machine.

 

[shadroch]

I'm not sure where you are getting your figures. Most slots pay bck in the 93-95% percent bracket, especially in competetive places like Vegas and AC.
You also are treating the marketing offers as one time deals. They are not. They are monthly, or yearly, even perhaps multiple year offers.
If you lose $100 in your initial play, but recieve $20 in free play twice a month, it doesn't take long before the situation is positive.
They have recently toned things down but last year I was recieving $50 offers, good every two weeks for each of Harrahs three Boardwalk Casinos.
Thats in addition to a few free nites per month per casino and two free buffets per casino per month.
You play heavy once, take a loss and then get your money backand more in bi-weekly amounts.

 

[Machinist]

Agreed Shad..... The hardest part of this freeplay comping deal is figuring out the threshhold of their system...Thresholds also vary with amount of play through the machines and if they have a tiered card system....
TAkes time to figure this all out.....
AssumeR it is real hard to explain all the different situations that are out there in the freeplay comp systems...
Sagefrog is doing some stuff now....basically playing nearly break even machines....He just got back into action in this one casino because it had been sold i believe. He had to start all over again because the new owners changed the comping system....
Sometimes you have to really dig deep to figure out how the stores have their comp systems set up...
ONe other thing.....I never play slots straight up......there usually is better machines than slots to play....Sometime you have to really really really look,,,but they could be there ...
There are tons of opportunities out there....just like BJ...you have to keep your eyes peeled and experience at this gig isn't learned over night..or on open forums...
There are plenty of books on the subject.....but just like bj card counting..you can read all you want ,but until you experience it , it's hard to really grasp it.

Take care Machinist

 

[assume_R]

Thanks guys.

I've also been looking up strategies for video poker on wizard of odds. With enough comps that seems to be very much +EV.

My next followup question is what to look for in determining what good machines to play at are? I suppose I can look up on wizard of odds the house edge for each video poker machine, but what about slots? How can anybody know ahead of time what their payouts will be for different machines? Or other machine games for that matter.

 

[Billy C1]

Thanks guys.

I've also been looking up strategies for video poker on wizard of odds. With enough comps that seems to be very much +EV.

My next followup question is what to look for in determining what good machines to play at are? I suppose I can look up on wizard of odds the house edge for each video poker machine, but what about slots? How can anybody know ahead of time what their payouts will be for different machines? Or other machine games for that matter.

It really depends on what you call "very much +EV" . My guess is that you'll very seldom exceed a net +1.5% at video poker.

BillyC1

 

[Machinist]

It really depends on what you call "very much +EV" . My guess is that you'll very seldom exceed a net +1.5% at video poker.

BillyC1

Billy not really correct.....well kinda sorta ........sometimes :laugh::laugh:
The whole thing with with comps/machines is pumping the cash through the machines as fast as you can .....In the old days it was all single line.....But now there are 50 and hundred play....5play and tripleplay... Some good video BJ also..here and there...
Assume slots are tough....really tough....unless your in the "business"
Double Diamond slots by igt have a "realatively low variance" as does sizzling 7's" They usually have progressives attached..... Now if you can somehow find out the HE on your particular machines...you can pencil it out....
Myself they aren"t worth it.... VP and Video BJ.....are the two most often exploited....and most casinos know that. That is why you get less points for vp play..or it is not included in point promotions. Totally casnino dependent on these issues..
I cant go into wongable slot machines as they have been called on this site....Really slow now in that department now days.
Assume 9/6 JOB are good,,, super aces 8/5 are good/ do some research online ...have the different pay schedules with you when you go into casinos....after awhile you will see what is the best game available to play.....

Machinist