Miss manners on Tipping Dealers

GeorgeD

Well-Known Member
#1
Interesting perspective of Miss Manners. From:

http://www.buffalonews.com/opinion/columns/missmanners/story/307293.html (Archive copy)

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Dear Miss Manners:

As a veteran Las Vegas blackjack dealer, I’ve been involved in a heated discussion with my colleagues concerning the tipping practices of losing gamblers. Casino tipping is always a hot topic because it’s how we make most of our living.

It is not, however, the same as tipping a food server or a valet, where gratuities are usually offered for services rendered. Quite often, at gaming tables, large amounts of money hang in the balance and can be lost in the blink of an eye, seriously affecting the financial well being of an individual or a family.

Many of my co-workers expect to be tipped even by losing players because they say it has everything to do with etiquette and good manners. I say this is a ludicrous expectation on the part of the truly selfish.

I say the expectations of etiquette and good manners should have acceptable limitations, especially when it concerns a person’s bank account. What say you?


Gentle Reader:


Certainly not that only the fortunate should practice good manners. But also that your colleagues have unrealistic expectations.

It is true that polite people tip routinely, knowing that those who perform certain services do not get their full wages from their employers. But, as you point out, the service you perform is not quite like that of a food server. If the food is bad, the waiters should not be penalized (although they often are); complaints should be made to the restaurant management.

But you and your colleagues don’t just deal the cards. You represent the house, which is, in effect, the gamblers’ opponent. And although you personally have not acquired the money that was lost, it may be difficult for the gambler to make that distinction.
 

vonQuux

Well-Known Member
#2
I'm going to disagree on this one.

I -- as a thinking human being -- realize that the dealer is not the house. They neither suffer their loses nor enjoy it's inevitable winnings. All they do is push the cards when I ask for them and hand out the chips when the cards dictate. They have as much influence over the results of the game as my astrological sign (read; zero).

I would humbly suggest that the dealers be tipped (or not, as the case may be) based solely on the things they are in control of. That is to say their ability to converse, the ability to detect if conversation is desired in the first place, and to do their job competently.

If I lose then I would expect to give the dealer a tip commensurate with their ability in those duties. If I win then I would kick in a bit more. But if it would be inappropriate to stiff a waitress because of undercooked eggs (over which she has no control) then surely it's just as wrongheaded to short-change a dealer for a bout of unfortunate math.

I think MM is condoning boorishness using ignorance of the dealer's job as cover.

vQ
 

la_dee_daa

Well-Known Member
#3
wasn't tipping at one point in time a reward for excellent serviece? If a waitress give me shitty serviece have they really earned a tip? For a dealer to get tips it should be based on the action they control, if they start hitting soft 18s, taking my winning hands,fumble the cards flipping them over the table and not being very friendly, then they should not get a tip. its just bad serviece. Now if we have a dealer who is pleasent maybe even goes to far to give bs advice to someone pondering over their 2s yea they deserve a tip. I had one occasion where one the first shoe of the new dealer after i got my first card Qhearts he offered my the lucky lady bet, which lost but thats besides the point and he was a replacment dealer for like not even half a shoe. thats going above and beyond from my view.

also how can we tip if we lose all our money at the table?

i have friends who work for some tips too and don't tip at all... 0 nada.
 

Kasi

Well-Known Member
#4
la_dee_daa said:
also how can we tip if we lose all our money at the table?
Well I believe in tipping in general. But sometimes, not often, a dealer is so unfriendly I just don't. Even though I think usually all tips are all shared at the end of the shift anyway so I guess if that individual dealer never got one tip in his whole shift, he'd still get it at the end anyway.

Maybe not at the Wynn? Or is that where even the PB shares in them?

Anyway I almost never tip when leaving table. I just play a hand for the dealer every now and then for a buck or 2. Usually fairly early so it can't hurt having them on your side a little. Maybe in a better count so maybe they might win.

I just add it back in, along with waitress tips, to figure out gain/loss from playing.

If card-counting, I'd just fund my gambling roll from other sources so the tips are still in my roll in theory and then the tips are just like any other discretionary expense in life.

I mean if one is gonna complain about tips reducing EV why don't you also count the cost of gas, marginal cost of a dinner compared to eating at home, etc as reducing EV?
 

moo321

Well-Known Member
#5
What if no one tipped? And mega-corporations had to pay their employees out of their massive profits, instead of exploiting their workers with server's wage...
 

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
#7
Wynn is the place where floor supervisors also dip into the tip pool.

You know, I had a weird thought today about tipping. Say you've got a medium-high rolling ploppy. Flat bets $100 a hand, and doesn't know basic strategy worth a damn. He's probably giving up $2 per hand to the house.

Now, if he was a really generous, nice guy, he coudl learn perfect basic strategy, tip $1 per hand to the dealer (that's $100 per hour in tips people), and still lose money slightly slower.

I'm not sure what my point is.
 

GeorgeD

Well-Known Member
#8
I pretty much agree you should tip relative to service (dealer competence, attitude, and friendliness) though with them sharing tips I'm not sure why that matters.

BUt overall you can't compare them to servers who get paid $2 per hour and may even have a % of their book reported as taxes. ALso there is a direct relationship between service and the wait person. If they're poor at the job and don't get tipped they probably won't stick around.

Dealers as I understand are paid at least minimum wage, so tips are a bonus.

I still tip, but considering the money casinos pull in every day they surely more than anyplace can and should pay their staff a living wage. I get annoyed when they talk about local casinos creating jobs .... what, mostly minimum wage jobs for clerks and janitors with dealers making a few bucks more and waitresses really cleaning up if they hustle. Then the casinos report millions a year that go in their pocket. Well maybe not a lot different from major corps these that pay even the incompetent CEO's millions while exploiting workers.
 

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
#9
The dealer I chatted up at TI revealed that she was truly paid actual minimum wage. Forgot to ask what benefits were like (specially insurance) Although I know Harrahs at least offers some sort of 401k.

But let's face it, minimum wage isn't much money.

Heck, at my job, overtime is about 33% of my income, and sometimes my paychecks are roller coasters. Imagine if tips were 80% of your income!
 

GeorgeD

Well-Known Member
#10
I wonder how much it varies from joint to joint. I asked a dealer at a local indian place if they were well paid. He nodded and said "very well". I don't see a lot of tipping at $15 tables, but don't know if he meand because of tips ... maybe they all get time in the high limit room

Ontario Canada casinos OTOH are government run and Union. My guess it they get decent pay and good benes.

Most of my income comes from a pension. No ups and downs, but it should always be there right on time. :)

EasyRhino said:
The dealer I chatted up at TI revealed that she was truly paid actual minimum wage. Forgot to ask what benefits were like (specially insurance) Although I know Harrahs at least offers some sort of 401k.

But let's face it, minimum wage isn't much money.

Heck, at my job, overtime is about 33% of my income, and sometimes my paychecks are roller coasters. Imagine if tips were 80% of your income!
 

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
#11
Over at dealerboards, I heard mention of $20-$30/hr at some of the nicer Indian casinos in southern California. Less at break-in joints, more at the Wynn (even after management gets its vig)
 

shadroch

Well-Known Member
#12
MGM is currently moving towards paying all the dealers in all their casinos the same wages.No one,I repeat no-one employeed by MGM makes minimum wage.Its a source of pride in the company that they don't ever pay minimum wage.Right now,their pay scale slides based on which casino you work in,but that will end by the end of the year.The lowest pay for a dealer at any Vegas MGM casino is $7.75.
 
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Cardcounter

Well-Known Member
#13
Bet for the dealer!

As a dealer I love it when people make a bet for me that way I can win or lose as the customer does. If the customer wins I win double if the customer loses I lose my tip in that why I get a tip only if the customer wins. However I still feel satisfied that the customer made the effort to make a bet for me even if that bet loses.
 

Canceler

Well-Known Member
#14
Since he brought it up...

Disregarding the purely monetary aspect of it for a second (which seems to be a foreign concept to a lot of people here)… :joker:

Cardcounter said:
I still feel satisfied...
Where tips are pooled, we realize that the particular dealer we may want to tip will only get a small portion of our tip. At the same time, we realize that another dealer whom we despise will also get a small portion of that tip. Can we at least expect that the dealer who gets the tip will get some psychological or emotional benefit from it?
 
#15
GeorgeD said:
I wonder how much it varies from joint to joint. I asked a dealer at a local indian place if they were well paid. He nodded and said "very well". I don't see a lot of tipping at $15 tables, but don't know if he meand because of tips ... maybe they all get time in the high limit room

Ontario Canada casinos OTOH are government run and Union. My guess it they get decent pay and good benes.

Most of my income comes from a pension. No ups and downs, but it should always be there right on time. :)
sorry off topic but do you actually know of a casino in Ontario worth playing blackjack at?
 

GeorgeD

Well-Known Member
#16
BlackChipBlackJack said:
sorry off topic but do you actually know of a casino in Ontario worth playing blackjack at?
The two in Niagara Falls are mostly CSM. Fallsview has some hand shuffled, but still .............. 8 deck shoes and little space to wong when busy. Not so good.

Seneca Niagara NY side of falls at least is hand shuffled, but 8 deck.
 

aslan

Well-Known Member
#17
la_dee_daa said:
wasn't tipping at one point in time a reward for excellent serviece? If a waitress give me shitty serviece have they really earned a tip? For a dealer to get tips it should be based on the action they control, if they start hitting soft 18s, taking my winning hands,fumble the cards flipping them over the table and not being very friendly, then they should not get a tip. its just bad serviece. Now if we have a dealer who is pleasent maybe even goes to far to give bs advice to someone pondering over their 2s yea they deserve a tip. I had one occasion where one the first shoe of the new dealer after i got my first card Qhearts he offered my the lucky lady bet, which lost but thats besides the point and he was a replacment dealer for like not even half a shoe. thats going above and beyond from my view.

also how can we tip if we lose all our money at the table?

i have friends who work for some tips too and don't tip at all... 0 nada.
Waitressing is a special case. Waitresses in one place I frequent are given a salary of $2.38 an hour. The tip is actually the larger part of their salary. IMO, it is really a part of the price of the meal. If a restaurant didn't allow tipping, they would have to up the salaries of the waitresses at least to minimum wage, maybe higher just to get them to work. Personally, I if I don't like the service I tip 15%. Otherwise, I tip in the range of 20 to 30%.

Dealers...if I lose, I might not tip at all, or only minimally. If I win, I generally wait until the end of the session and tip $10 or so. Sometimes, more as a cover, I'll tip lightly on a natural or a big hand, or I'll bet lightly for the dealer. I'll also look to see if tipping influences the amount of penetration; I don't mind tipping if the favor is returned. I won't tip a nasty dealer period.
 

RenoRenagade

Well-Known Member
#18
I only tip if a dealer matches any of the following and only after a winning session .

1) They were to point a BS mistake to anyone at the table / Or they admit they hate where they work .

2) When I bet big and the dealer doesnt care worth a dam cuz they hate their job.

3) The dealer is nice , polite and goes above and beyond in one way another .

And even after all this it would have to be a winning session .



and most importantly the things that make me not tip

1) FAKE SYMPATHY !!! man this is the most annoying thing they can do , if you are losing and they are like " ah man Im sorry after they hit there hard 16 and get a 5" with that fake tone. or even better when they get a BJ and are like " oh how lucky , im so sorry " I realize this is in the " HANDBOOK " to increase tips and encourage play but I hate it with a passion ( USUALLY ITS THE MID AGED BY THE BOOK WOMAN WHO DO IT ).

2) Shuffle when I bet big - This actually gets me to leave the casino lol :laugh:

3) Did I mention I hate fake sympathy



But i sure hate when idiots tip in poker a 2$ tip when they win a 6$ pot .
 

moo321

Well-Known Member
#19
RenoRenagade said:
I only tip if a dealer matches any of the following and only after a winning session .

1) They were to point a BS mistake to anyone at the table / Or they admit they hate where they work .

2) When I bet big and the dealer doesnt care worth a dam cuz they hate their job.

3) The dealer is nice , polite and goes above and beyond in one way another .

And even after all this it would have to be a winning session .



and most importantly the things that make me not tip

1) FAKE SYMPATHY !!! man this is the most annoying thing they can do , if you are losing and they are like " ah man Im sorry after they hit there hard 16 and get a 5" with that fake tone. or even better when they get a BJ and are like " oh how lucky , im so sorry " I realize this is in the " HANDBOOK " to increase tips and encourage play but I hate it with a passion ( USUALLY ITS THE MID AGED BY THE BOOK WOMAN WHO DO IT ).

2) Shuffle when I bet big - This actually gets me to leave the casino lol :laugh:

3) Did I mention I hate fake sympathy



But i sure hate when idiots tip in poker a 2$ tip when they win a 6$ pot .
I generally tip dealers based on time. $1 an hour from every player at a poker table gets most dealers $15-20 an hour.
 
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