More questions about KO. . .from a newB

[wanaBgambler]

again, im very new at this and i keep confusing myself. . .so KO doesn't really deal with a TC. if playing a 6D game the IRC is -20. If the RC is > -16 within the first 52 cards played, can i assume I have the advantage (because each deck has a net of +4). The pivot point in KO is -4 but that doesn't consider amount of cards played. I assume that after 52 cards played the RC should be about -16, after 104 the RC should be -12. . .etc. A -4 RC, statiscly, will not appear until 2D remain (at which time its time to schuffle). Hopefully my question makes some kind of sense. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Also, using KO, insurance is to be taken at > +2. Is there a better way to figure taking insurance. Like maybe a rough estimate specifically for insurance. Such as, at x RC with 1 deck played take insurance, or with 2 decks played take insurance at x RC. Anything like that because im trying to keep it simple.

Also, if there was a certain RC at which to take insurance with a given amount of cards already played, there would be a linear relationship between all the correct times to take insurance and that would be helpfull. OK im done. . .ill shut up now. Thanks again for any help

 

[Mimosine]

so KO doesn't really deal with a TC.

correct.

quote:
if playing a 6D game the IRC is -20. If the RC is > -16 within the first 52 cards played, can i assume I have the advantage (because each deck has a net of +4).

incorrect. off the top of the shoe your edge is roughly -0.5 (based on game rules). The KO RC rises on average +4 per deck due to the 7s which unbalance it, thus if the count goes up +4 over the course of 1 deck you STILL have roughly a -0.5 edge.

QUOTE:
The pivot point in KO is -4 but that doesn't consider amount of cards played. I assume that after 52 cards played the RC should be about -16, after 104 the RC should be -12. . .etc. A -4 RC, statiscly, will not appear until 2D remain (at which time its time to schuffle). Hopefully my question makes some kind of sense. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.


The KEY COUNT for 6D is -4. the PIVOT POINT is +4. at the PIVOT POINT your true count will ALWAYS be +4, that is the way KO was designed. At the Pivot Point you will always have a fixed edge regardless of where you are in the shoe.

QUOTE:
Also, using KO, insurance is to be taken at > +2. Is there a better way to figure taking insurance. Like maybe a rough estimate specifically for insurance. Such as, at x RC with 1 deck played take insurance, or with 2 decks played take insurance at x RC. Anything like that because im trying to keep it simple.

No there is not a better way. the pivot point of +4 is the most accurate RC for KO, thus counts very close to +4 are also very accurate throughout the entire shoe. thus insurance at +3 is the correct time to play it, regardless of how many decks have been played.


here is a table i made to examine the very questions that are pestering you:
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=5707&highlight=conversion

 

[wanaBgambler]

thanks. . .i saw that chart on my original posting but it seemed like a lot too take in. Im still new and the only uses I have for counting (thus far) are bet variation and insurance.
So, acording to KO the advantage comes at an RC of -4 (and only then), correct?
If, after 1D has been played and the RC is -16 our advantage is -.5, does that advantage increase if the RC is GREATER then -16 after 1D has been played. I assume so, but not significantly enough to adjust betting.
According to TC when is insurance the proper move?
Its scary how much Im enjoying studying this stuff. . .thanks again for all your help

 

[Mimosine]

thanks. . .i saw that chart on my original posting but it seemed like a lot too take in. Im still new and the only uses I have for counting (thus far) are bet variation and insurance.
So, acording to KO the advantage comes at an RC of -4 (and only then), correct?
If, after 1D has been played and the RC is -16 our advantage is -.5, does that advantage increase if the RC is GREATER then -16 after 1D has been played. I assume so, but not significantly enough to adjust betting.
According to TC when is insurance the proper move?
Its scary how much Im enjoying studying this stuff. . .thanks again for all your help

Well, on AVERAGE you will have a slight advantage at RC = -4, if it comes early in the shoe then you have a slightly bigger advantage, if it comes late in the shoe you have a disadvantage, but averaged out it is the correct time to increase your bet by 1 unit according to KO preferred.

for me when i decided to fine tune KO for the sole purpose of wonging in and out, I use a RC of -8 after 1 deck, -6 after 2 or -4 after 3 to wong in and bet at a 2X unit. i often use this strategy at a $10 table as my unit is $5, and often $5 tables are not available where i play.

other than that i would recommend knowing when to wong out if you are playing a shoe from the top.

again, for me if i had to know any more details than this, then i would take the time to learn hi/lo, but that's me. i, like you, dove really deep into trying to understand KO and it took some time, and some help from the nice people on here.

+3 will always be the correct time to take insurance. there might be 1 out of 100000 shoes that will hit RC 0 in the first 2 decks, in those cases you would take insurance at RC = 0 since the TC would equal 3, but this subtle detail is NOT worth remembering, it will not happen to you in your lifetime.
this would be the eqivalent of having 20 low cards and 32 8s and 9s come out in the first 52 cards, or something equally unlikely like 36 lows, 16 highs and 10 8s and 9s. these situations will not happen often enough for you to be prepared for them.

RC 3 and RC 4 are VERY accurate points for KO throughout the shoe. RC -4 is less accurate, but is a reasonable approximation for seeing a net + expectation over time.

hope this helps. be very careful if you deviate too far from what is prescribed in KO because it works very differently than a balanced count, and very differently from other unbalanced counts like KISS, RED7, etc...

 

[wanaBgambler]

yea, this site has helped a lot. . .now i have the means to bounce different ideas off of people who might actually know what they are talking about (unlike me). so your knowledge and the collective knowledge of this site is greatly appreciated!

 

[ChefJJ]

I was looking for the KO info on a 4-deck game, but couldn't find it through the search function. Can anyone rattle off the IRC, PP, KC for 4 decks.

Thanks

 

[BlackjackDan]

The KEY COUNT for 6D is -4. the PIVOT POINT is +4. at the PIVOT POINT your true count will ALWAYS be +4, that is the way KO was designed. At the Pivot Point you will always have a fixed edge regardless of where you are in the shoe.

No there is not a better way. the pivot point of +4 is the most accurate RC for KO, thus counts very close to +4 are also very accurate throughout the entire shoe. thus insurance at +3 is the correct time to play it, regardless of how many decks have been played.

So if I understand you correctly, you're saying that there is a 9 number difference (counting 0) between the key count and the pivot point. Then would you say that the fab 5's is an added precaution?

 

[SystemsTrader]

I was looking for the KO info on a 4-deck game, but couldn't find it through the search function. Can anyone rattle off the IRC, PP, KC for 4 decks.

Thanks

IRC = -12
KC = -1
PP = +4
INS = +3

 

[ChefJJ]

IRC = -12
KC = -1
PP = +4
INS = +3

Again, thanks. I tried to just split the difference between the 2 deck and 6 deck figures...but couldn't remember which way to lean in the 5 number difference in the KC's.

good luck

 

[21forme]

Where are you playing a 4D game?

 

[ChefJJ]

Where are you playing a 4D game?

I haven't played one yet...but I did see that there may have been a 4D game in Cortez, CO at one point. So I just wanted to be ready in case that is still offered there.

Going on a camping trip next week in CO/UT and Cortez will be a night where we are staying in town in a motel...casino 11 miles away so it may be something to do that night.

 

[Mimosine]

So if I understand you correctly, you're saying that there is a 9 number difference (counting 0) between the key count and the pivot point. Then would you say that the fab 5's is an added precaution?

for 6D yes there is a 9 points swing. for 8D an 11 point swing, for SD a 3 point swing.

not sure i understand your fab 5's question....