My experiences after four months of backcounting.

[matt21]

I have finally found a method that works for me.

hi blazin22 - glad to hear that its going well for you. :grin:

i would recommend you buy CVD (if you dont have it already) and run through your play scenarios - your wong-in points, your hands per hour, your bet ramp etc - then you will get a concrete answer of what you should expect to make per hour - rather than rely on your actual results for your 19 (by now maybe more?) sessions. 19 sessions, even say at 3 hours a piece, is not sufficient for getting anywhere close to your EV (esp. because the number of hands played would be quite low because you only play at certain positive counts) and thus it would be dangerous to be confident in having found a good playing strategy on that basis.

i use CVD and some models of my own very regularly to check and analyse my games. often this has spat results that I initially didnt expect.

anyways that would be my tip based on my experience - take it or leave it and good luck to you!!

 

[Automatic Monkey]

I use a very different way to keep the running count that you probably haven't considered. the key for me is to make it as easy as possible. Longer sessions can definitely take their toll.

As the first round of cards are being drawn, I will quickly add all the low cards, then scan backwards through the cards adding all the high cards and then simply subtracting these from the number of low cards. Its easy to do this rapidly before the player on first base decides on drawing a card. At that point I will revert back to incrementing/subtracting the count as the cards come out individually/in pairs.

Sometimes you get these insanely quick dealers, and I love them because they're prone to showing additional cards after they've gone bust. The rules in the uk allow that card to then be kept in play, if its an ace I'll be sure to max out first base.

Sounds like you've got a great backcounting game going. No matter what other kind of AP you do, it's tough to beat backcounting in shoe games because you can do it nearly anywhere and you alone set your profitability and risk by controlling your entry and exit points as well as spread. Even games with poor rules and pen can be successfully backcounted.

One thing you might want to add to your arsenal if you haven't already is optimum departure points, the point where you give up on backcounting a shoe and look for a new one. The simulators alone don't do a great job of that, but I have heard Schlesinger's book Blackjack Attack has tons of data along these lines.

 

[callipygian]

If he says he can backcount for 8 hours successfully, I have no reason to doubt him.

I believe that for the most part the things that people post are true in the sense that I'm sure that at some point, someone somewhere has backcounted for 8 hours.

Now, whether this translates into a general strategy for everyone everywhere is in doubt. Certainly, I don't think standing behind a table and backcounting for more than a minute or two works in Las Vegas.

But there are exceptions - last year I was in Vegas for a bachelor party where half of the group had been to Vegas many times and half had never been. The newbies were swooning over every single game they came across, and doubly so because the dancing pit at Planet Hollywood featured boobies. :laugh: At any rate, basically 5-7 newbies took turns buying in for $50-$100 at a $25 table and busting out, while the 3 of us who counted did the same except we'd only jump in at high counts. This went on for 1.5 hours with zero heat.

Basically, I think to be a successful Wonger, you have to be able to take advantage of rare situations. I don't think anyone's ever going to write the Definitive Post on Everything to Do With Wonging.

 

[zengrifter]

It sounds like InPlay needs a relaxing vacation. I’ll give him 10 days this time. Banned.
-Sonny-

WAIT!! I didn't get my PM!!! zg

 

[callipygian]

WAIT!! I didn't get my PM!!! zg

I'll send you one! Is homosexual spelled with one "g" or two?

 

[bj bob]

It sounds like InPlay needs a relaxing vacation. I’ll give him 10 days this time. Banned.

-Sonny-

I would have suggested that you spank him, but after some thought I figured he'd probably enjoy it. :whip: :whip:

 

[blazin22]

Not sure I should be posting this here, but I would eventually like to have a video archive of each dealers shuffle, so I can analyse them on my computer.
I'd like to try my hand at shuffle tracking next, rather than learning a level 2 count. I'd Imagine it to be easy to video the dealers shuffle from my mobile phone, I could pretend i'm texting. Note sure about the consequences of being caught though. I'm in the UK remember! :whip: :cool2:

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Not sure I should be posting this here, but I would eventually like to have a video archive of each dealers shuffle, so I can analyse them on my computer.
I'd like to try my hand at shuffle tracking next, rather than learning a level 2 count. I'd Imagine it to be easy to video the dealers shuffle from my mobile phone, I could pretend i'm texting. Note sure about the consequences of being caught though. I'm in the UK remember! :whip: :cool2:

Yes in the US we don't analyse shuffles, we analyze them.

You're better off just taking notes in your own shorthand of the shuffle, then reproducing it at home. No need to take video in the casino.

 

[bj bob]

Yes in the US we don't analyse shuffles, we analyze them..

What about KOLAN? He analeyes them. :grin::grin:

 

[Mimosine]

What about KOLAN? He analeyes them. :grin::grin:

you're being too generous to Kolan with your use of consonants. i'm not even sure he uses words with more than 7 letters total.

 

[KOLAN]

you're being too generous to Kolan with your use of consonants. i'm not even sure he uses words with more than 7 letters total.

:celebrate
:laugh::laugh:

 

[UK-21]

Not sure I should be posting this here, but I would eventually like to have a video archive of each dealers shuffle, so I can analyse them on my computer.
I'd like to try my hand at shuffle tracking next, rather than learning a level 2 count. I'd Imagine it to be easy to video the dealers shuffle from my mobile phone, I could pretend i'm texting. Note sure about the consequences of being caught though. I'm in the UK remember! :whip: :cool2:

I think it's pretty much taken as read that if you get caught filming the dealers' shuffles your membership for that particular chain of casinos will go in the bin. If that happens, don't be too surprised if your memberships to others are cancelled as well.

Don't be silly.

 

[itakeyourmoney]

I think it's pretty much taken as read that if you get caught filming the dealers' shuffles your membership for that particular chain of casinos will go in the bin. If that happens, don't be too surprised if your memberships to others are cancelled as well.

Don't be silly.

Personally I'd go with one of the hidden cameras that perverts wear to film hot girls in malls and at the beach :devil:

But seriously, I agree with newb99. If you get caught with a camera you're f*ed, best to just make notes. Either that or get a job working security at a casino and just watch the surveillance tapes -- from what I've heard just about any low-life can get a job working casino security :laugh:

 

[UK-21]

. . . from what I've heard just about any low-life can get a job working casino security :laugh:

I think it's a lot harder in the UK. All casino staff who work the tables have to be licenced by the Gambling Commission, and there's a six week plus course (leading to an NVQ qualification of some sort) that is virtually a pre-requisite to apply. No two week in-house crash courses here. At present, due to the downturn in the employment market, I would think someone who has just got their licence and is looking for their first job shouldn't hold their breath - rumour has it that most licencees in the UK are laying off staff. Best bet is to find someone who has recently been laid off and pick their brains.

As to analysing shuffle techniques, I don't think filming is required. Just read up on the subject and go and watch. Where I play shuffles range from the most simplistic (not much more than changing the order of the cards slightly) to fairly thorough and consistent where any high card slugs are all but diluted away. It depends on the dealer.

blazin22 should go and play some of the afternoon sessions where it's susual to find some trainees dealing the cards under close supervision.

 

[zengrifter]

It sounds like InPlay needs a relaxing vacation. I’ll give him 10 days this time. Banned.

-Sonny-

Death to jack-booted member-banners! zg

 

[blazin22]

refining your wonging strategy.

Don't be silly.

Yeah I guess the video thing is a bit stupid. I've been using this board allot lately, I'm unable to play at the moment due to a badly sprained ankle so I'm just itching to get back into the casino environment.

This has actually given me an idea on how to wong into a table that has all seat occupied. If you could visit the casino on crutches, and when the time comes to place a bet you could stand close to the table hobbling on your crutches, pretending to be in some kind of pain, someone would surely offer you a seat. Some casinos in the UK have five boxes maximum instead of the usual seven, so these would obviously be preferable.

Third or first base would be the ideal location, if you were sat in the middle you'd be constantly batting your head back and forth trying to keep an eye on the cards which is a bit of a give-away as to what you're doing.

I try to justify my wong in-out on voodoo, "I only play when the stars are in alignment" to which one of the dealers replied that I belong in a mental institute. If you're winning its best to not declare it, I always maintain I am chasing my losses, I curse at the table, bang the table, and generally use a very convincing obnoxious act. Sometimes even going as far as calling the dealers pro*******. They're less likely to try and strike up a conversation with you that way, leaving you to concentrate on more pressing matters.

maybe if I win a very substantial amount of money, and then go on a small losing streak, I think I could coax myself into crocodile tears.

 

[itakeyourmoney]

if you were sat in the middle you'd be constantly batting your head back and forth trying to keep an eye on the cards which is a bit of a give-away as to what you're doing.

Maybe at higher limits watching the cards gets more scrutiny than the low limits where I play, but I don't think it's suspicious to sit in the middle and swivel your head (though it can be a little straining on the neck I suppose). Even non-counters watch the cards being dealt, if for no other reason than to give out one of those stupidstitious grunts that "real-men gamblers" often do when someone gets dealt a 10 or an Ace.

 

[Tom007]

Blazzin22, At the risk of sounding doubtful, in your original post you stated that you sometimes ask for better pen. Since a back counter doesn't play the start of a shoe, how do you ask for better pen. Do you simply stand behind the other players and say can you go deeper, I need to win back my losses, and then proceed to stand back and let the other players play?

I'm really not trying to cut you up just confused as to how you pull that one off.

I wish you continued success.

 

[blazin22]

Blazzin22, At the risk of sounding doubtful, in your original post you stated that you sometimes ask for better pen. Since a back counter doesn't play the start of a shoe, how do you ask for better pen. Do you simply stand behind the other players and say can you go deeper, I need to win back my losses, and then proceed to stand back and let the other players play?

I'm really not trying to cut you up just confused as to how you pull that one off.

I wish you continued success.

A trick I like to use, particularly early in the day when noone is playing, is to open a box, start playing small get some good pen, this usually entices people to join in, I will then proceed to believe in the scared flow of the cards and stop playing. Youve never noticed how quickly other people join in when you sit down at an empty table? Sometimes you don't need to do anything to get good penetration, its just a matter of the dealers preference. I tend to find the faster dealers cut off less cards not sure why there is a correlation. I'm not sure what exactly is so hard to believe about backcounting? its alot easier than play all, let me tell you.

 

[blazin22]

Not insinuating anything, but i've always been reluctant to purchase cvcx and other Qfit products because how can we reliably say our identities are not sold on to the casinos? I'm sure it would make the casino's life alot easier identifying potential winning players earlier by obtaining names etc of people interested in prerequisite bj simulation software.

-bz