NEW James Grosjean article

[Bojack1]

Obviously you continue to be burdened by your need / desire to demean me.

There is NO paradox here. I am imperfectly ethical. Mostly everyone is.

If I plan or conspire to do something unethical that is one thing.
Taking advantage of found money is merely opportunistic.
That is why courts, etc. always consider "motive"
When money falls in my lap I accept it.
I do not take any steps to take what is NOT mine !

What I just posted is completely accurate as to what happened;
but I am, unlike some paragons of virtue, merely human.

Last week a player left a green chip under a napkin at third base.
I found it and kept it - rather than attempting to return it to its rightful owner.

No Flash, I carry no burden concerning you. I wish you no ill will either. I do however see your imperfect ethical nature, which is by definition a paradox as you stand in contradiction of yourself. I will agree that most suffer from at least certain degrees of this, but those who tend to rationalize there unethical shortcomings, are the ones with real paradoxical behavior. There is a difference between finding found money and keeping it do to not knowing where it came from, and taking money from someone or something knowing full well its not yours. Its like saying if you saw money hanging out of someones pocket and you grabbed it without them knowing it, its just then found money since it was a spontaneous act not pre meditated. Maybe the weak dealer who pays out too much is the same weak dealer that flashes their holecard. If holecarding is unethical with this dealer, I would have to believe that taking underserved payouts would be as well. As with the holecard maybe not all at the table could get this advantage, so is it okay to take it?

Just for general information, I have no problem with team play, holecarding legally, as well as accepting over payments. I may not be as "ethical" as you, but I am no rationalizing paradox.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

I posted about this one before way back but I saw a video demonstration of the "Laughlin Layaway" technique used in a pitch game in which the dealer peeks at the top card and then deals either the top card or the second card to the player depending on what he saw. It was amazing and alarming at the same time and made me wonder if I was ever the victim of this way back in the early days. Dealer working in collusion with a player? It seems to me that it could only go on for a short time before someone catches on, such as the eye! Would you guys agree with this?

You have me paranoid now, Flash! Next time we are playing together and the dealer pays me on a push (an honest mistake that sometimes happens), I will have to be concerned that you will squeal on me!!!hahahaha

The problem with waiting for the eye to pick this up is that in a small independent store the house might be in on it. If you pick up on it and are prepared to report it, you are now a threat to them and something very bad can happen to you. They're already felons; if you are going to raise the stakes they might raise them even further for their own survival.

If I definitely saw cheating in a casino by the house I would report it but I would be far away from that building before I let anyone know I saw it.

 

[FLASH1296]

Good response posted.

I accept it in the fraternal spirit that it was offered.

 

[Tarzan]

This means....

Does this all mean that you wouldn't squeal on me after all, Flash? I see the point though... found money on a by chance occurance versus intentional action. If you found a winning lottery ticket laying on the sidewalk, would you turn it in to someone so you can be ol' Honest Abe or pocket it? If I see a black chip laying on the carpet and pick it up--it's MINE, baby! If I see someone dropping a black chip from their possession and I know exactly who it came from, I would give it to them/alert them to it and not even consider scooping it up for myself. I think this is the point Flash is trying to make, BoJack. I see no double standard or contradiction in this.

If I actually witnessed some sort of cheating or player/dealer collusion going on I would likely say nothing but I would also want to avoid being implicated as part of it and bail off the table is all.

 

[Martin Gayle]

Someone "cannot become enrichened by an error" is a legal standard. If you accept an overpayment, erroneous colour-up etc, the casino at anytime can identify the error and ask for their money back. If you do not, they can take civil action to prove that you recieved monies by error. Ever had a bank error in your favour?

If you make money through APing, there is no civil court that would order you to repay the money you won.

We should add a "finding a green chip under a napkin" to the advanced strategy threads.

 

[moo321]

Someone "cannot become enrichened by an error" is a legal standard. If you accept an overpayment, erroneous colour-up etc, the casino at anytime can identify the error and ask for their money back. If you do not, they can take civil action to prove that you recieved monies by error. Ever had a bank error in your favour?

If you make money through APing, there is no civil court that would order you to repay the money you won.

We should add a "finding a green chip under a napkin" to the advanced strategy threads.

Of course, they have to discover the error. If the house ever made an error, and asked for it back I'd give it back. But if they don't, they didn't exert their legal right to be made whole from the error.

 

[Brock Windsor]

Of course, they have to discover the error. If the house ever made an error, and asked for it back I'd give it back. But if they don't, they didn't exert their legal right to be made whole from the error.

Real life story. A player I was invested in was using a players card and was overpaid in error a few hundred and left the casino. On a subsequent visit she was only there < 30mins so they didn't approach her. On a third visit after about an hour of playing on her card she was approached and told "we have watched security video and on this date at this time you were overpaid X dollars. Please give it back" She had a few thousand in front of her and when she balked at repaying they said she would be trespassed if she did not repay. She paid up and was not 86'd. A player does not have the benefit of video replay after they leave the casino, the casino does. Does the blackjackinfo jury think this player was treated fairly?
BW

 

[johndoe]

I think most places would eat the error by that point.

But at the very least, she should have demanded to see the video so they can prove their claim. They almost certainly would have accommodated her.

 

[johndoe]

I had a dealer pay a push, then when he realized his mistake, grabbed AN EXTRA CHIP from my pile when pulling it back, then tried to deny doing so. I had to threaten to bring the floor person over before I was paid back. What an ass. This was at a big property, as well.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Real life story. A player I was invested in was using a players card and was overpaid in error a few hundred and left the casino. On a subsequent visit she was only there < 30mins so they didn't approach her. On a third visit after about an hour of playing on her card she was approached and told "we have watched security video and on this date at this time you were overpaid X dollars. Please give it back" She had a few thousand in front of her and when she balked at repaying they said she would be trespassed if she did not repay. She paid up and was not 86'd. A player does not have the benefit of video replay after they leave the casino, the casino does. Does the blackjackinfo jury think this player was treated fairly?
BW

I would have told them to bugger off. The reason is that they can trespass you after you give them the money too and once they figure out you are AP they are going to. They may have already figured it out and are trying to get a little bit of their money back first.

Think of this scenario: the shift manager comes up to you and says "We know you are a card counter. Pay us back $1000 of those chips, or we are going to trespass you" Would you do it? Of course not.

 

[Martin Gayle]

Real life story. A player I was invested in was using a players card and was overpaid in error a few hundred and left the casino. On a subsequent visit she was only there < 30mins so they didn't approach her. On a third visit after about an hour of playing on her card she was approached and told "we have watched security video and on this date at this time you were overpaid X dollars. Please give it back" She had a few thousand in front of her and when she balked at repaying they said she would be trespassed if she did not repay. She paid up and was not 86'd. A player does not have the benefit of video replay after they leave the casino, the casino does. Does the blackjackinfo jury think this player was treated fairly?
BW

A female AP! Is she sexy looking? Did they suspect her of being an AP or were they just correcting an error? Is she still able to operate as she did before?

 

[FLASH1296]

I have never heard of a patron's request / demand to view the video of the alleged error being acquiesced to.

Has anyone ?

 

[ihate17]

Saved for court and attorneys

I have never heard of a patron's request / demand to view the video of the alleged error being acquiesced to.

Has anyone ?

You will never see a casino either bring a video viewer to the table or take the player (good backroom trick though) to a room where he can view the video. What they will have to do, once Gaming gets involved is save the video for a later viewing that may be public in court. If this video shows the casino is wrong, then the video will have always been mistakenly taped over, strange how that happens.

ihate17

 

[Katweezel]

Not my mistake

Someone "cannot become enrichened by an error" is a legal standard. If you accept an overpayment, erroneous colour-up etc, the casino at anytime can identify the error and ask for their money back. If you do not, they can take civil action to prove that you recieved monies by error. Ever had a bank error in your favour?

If you make money through APing, there is no civil court that would order you to repay the money you won.

We should add a "finding a green chip under a napkin" to the advanced strategy threads.

Oh hell no... and I thought I got clean away with it forever, in 2001. There were 7 players and a new, nervous, 19-year-old male dealer, and he was not doing very well at all. I won my $600 bet on the previous round and I decided to double up, so this round I am playing $1200. I get 19. He gets 19.

Flustered by the next-to-me mistake he was forced to correct, he pays me $1200 on my push. The next guy looks at me... and grins. I said nothing. I "became enriched by an error." Well, maybe, but not all that much enriched now, was it... I didn't ask anyone to make an error. I did well getting 19. I figured I did well enough to win that hand, because he began with a 7. It seemed fair I got paid. Why not? I was, after all, honoring them with my prescence. How much is that worth? A lot more than a measly $1200 in my book...

Someone wanted to give me something. To not accept would be downright rude of me. I still feel like this, to this day. BUT, if the boot is on the other foot, all hell breaks loose. How dare they get enriched by an error... of mine!!!!... I wanna talk to that big fat guy pitboss over there... now. :cat:

 

[moo321]

I'll gladly be "enriched by an error" because the house would be enriched if I made one, and I'll have no recourse.

 

[tiaupnorth]

over paid at the cage

I had 14 black chips (100.00) at check out. The lady at the cage gave me $1900.00 instead. She over paid me 500.00. I didn't pay any attention because there was a line behind me and I was at the casino by myself and didn't want the man behind me to see exactly what I cashed in. I got a phone call later on that evening stating that, the casino cashier came out 500.00 short and the tape shows she over paid me. I live about 3hrs away from this casino boat and go there maybe once every 3-4 months. What should I do? Can the casino sue me or take me to jail for the cashier's error?

 

[Pro21]

I had 14 black chips (100.00) at check out. The lady at the cage gave me $1900.00 instead. She over paid me 500.00. I didn't pay any attention because there was a line behind me and I was at the casino by myself and didn't want the man behind me to see exactly what I cashed in. I got a phone call later on that evening stating that, the casino cashier came out 500.00 short and the tape shows she over paid me. I live about 3hrs away from this casino boat and go there maybe once every 3-4 months. What should I do? Can the casino sue me or take me to jail for the cashier's error?

Just one more reason to never use a players card.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

I had 14 black chips (100.00) at check out. The lady at the cage gave me $1900.00 instead. She over paid me 500.00. I didn't pay any attention because there was a line behind me and I was at the casino by myself and didn't want the man behind me to see exactly what I cashed in. I got a phone call later on that evening stating that, the casino cashier came out 500.00 short and the tape shows she over paid me. I live about 3hrs away from this casino boat and go there maybe once every 3-4 months. What should I do? Can the casino sue me or take me to jail for the cashier's error?

In the US, technically they could sue you (but they won't) and you cannot be charged criminally for this.

What I would do is have them send you a letter stating their case and requesting the money. That becomes a collection letter and it endows you with rights. Then send them a letter disputing the bill, and once they do that they cannot proceed until the dispute is resolved.

What kind of casino is this? Indian, US state controlled, or outside the US?

 

[WRX]

Re: $500 overpay at the cage

I wouldn't accept an overpay at the cage, because any employee in charge of a cash drawer is responsible for the contents of the drawer. If he comes up short, it's on his head. Very different from the give and take at the table. That's just me, you make your own decision.

In this case, a face-saving way of handling the matter might be for you to request that they send you a copy of the video by e-mail. Should be easy in this day and age. Then if I were you I'd just pay it, if I ever wanted to play in that casino again.

 

[moo321]

I had 14 black chips (100.00) at check out. The lady at the cage gave me $1900.00 instead. She over paid me 500.00. I didn't pay any attention because there was a line behind me and I was at the casino by myself and didn't want the man behind me to see exactly what I cashed in. I got a phone call later on that evening stating that, the casino cashier came out 500.00 short and the tape shows she over paid me. I live about 3hrs away from this casino boat and go there maybe once every 3-4 months. What should I do? Can the casino sue me or take me to jail for the cashier's error?

Negotiate with them. It's probably not a criminal matter, just civil.

Ask them if they can give you matchplays or something if you return the money. Ask if they'll comp you a suite if you come back. Couldn't hurt.

You also have the option of refusing to return it. Highly unlikely they'd rack up thousands in expenses suing you to get a $500 judgement. You'd be barred there, but you're up $500.