New player

[Morphy]

I have been browsing this forum and I can't seem to find posts directed at new players. I could be wrong so if someone has a link that would be much appreciated.

About me,
30 years old, I have never sat down at a Blackjack table in my life. I have been
practicing for 3 months now at home dealing real cards and using software.

According to the software my accuracy is 91% with all my errors in the deviations, and I make about 3 counting mistakes per shoe.

All I know is that I am not even near ready.

Thanks all

 

[Meistro]

Practice makes perfect.

 

[gronbog]

Very rarely will experienced players initiate a post directed at new players. It's usually the new players asking questions which get answered by the experienced players. That said, you'll generally receive a warmer welcome if you appear to have at least tried to find the answer on your own first.

 

[Morphy]

Very rarely will experienced players initiate a post directed at new players. It's usually the new players asking questions which get answered by the experienced players. That said, you'll generally receive a warmer welcome if you appear to have at least tried to find the answer on your own first.

apologies,

I did not want to ask questions that might have already been asked and answered, however your answer makes a lot of sense.


I guess to be more specific, I'm afraid to waste time in my practice, so I am looking for the best methods of practice/training. I have read that everyone makes the occasional mistake, but is there a milestone at which I can say "Ok I am good enough at basic strategy/or counting"?

 

[Morphy]

Practice makes perfect.

Yes Meistro,

and I will continue to grind
thanks

 

[sagefr0g]

@ Morphy
it's like sex, you'll get some when you're ready

but anyway i probably shouldn't comment cause i haven't counted cards for a long time, never was all that good at it, cut corners, got frustrated often, that sorta thing, still made a bit of money, luck or skill, lol. besides, 12 years ago when i did give it a shot one could actually find some good rule sets sorta thing. i dunno how folks still manage to hang in there counting cards with the difficulty of finding 'good' games.

that said, you might consider going to a joint and just playing some shoes just playing hopefully perfect basic strategy. that'll give you a bit of skin in the game, give you a real deal experience, sorta thing. give you an idea of how you think your doing counting but not betting up. i mean heck, a game like say 6 decks, H17, DAS, Late Surrender, Peek, Estimated casino edge for these rules: 0.58 %. what would you expect that to cost you? a long run average of fifty eight cents lost per one hundred dollars bet, sorta thing. but of course short run, fluctuation may inflict a bit of pain or pleasure.

but anyway, then you'd have a bit of skin in the game. from there you could make a sort of non math certainty equivalent calculation of if or not you really want to give actual card counting a shot, sorta thing. similar to CE calculation where one has a proposition bet offering, of would you bet $100 on a coin flip or just take a free $10, or would you bet $50 on a coin flip or just take a free $5, or would you bet $10 on a coin flip or just take $1, on and on, ..... but you had to make one of those bets (maybe a condition of a free roll promo sorta thing).

but anyway, i'd recommend never forgetting your really advanced (imho) idea of not wanting to waste time, as you stated, " I'm afraid to waste time in ...".
if your old like me, you don't want to wake up to late and finally remember that it's everything, all about time!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hT_nvWreIhg

 

[Meistro]

I guess to be more specific, I'm afraid to waste time in my practice, so I am looking for the best methods of practice/training. I have read that everyone makes the occasional mistake, but is there a milestone at which I can say "Ok I am good enough at basic strategy/or counting"?
Reply With Quote

It's simple. Get a discard tray, shoe and 6 decks. Have a friend or family member deal to you if possible. Cut out 1.5 decks and play the shoe out making all the appropriate betting / playing decisions. Until you can play through a shoe or several shoes with no counting, betting or playing errors you should not step foot in a casino.

 

[Morphy]

@ Morphy
it's like sex, you'll get some when you're ready

but anyway i probably shouldn't comment cause i haven't counted cards for a long time, never was all that good at it, cut corners, got frustrated often, that sorta thing, still made a bit of money, luck or skill, lol. besides, 12 years ago when i did give it a shot one could actually find some good rule sets sorta thing. i dunno how folks still manage to hang in there counting cards with the difficulty of finding 'good' games.

that said, you might consider going to a joint and just playing some shoes just playing hopefully perfect basic strategy. that'll give you a bit of skin in the game, give you a real deal experience, sorta thing. give you an idea of how you think your doing counting but not betting up. i mean heck, a game like say 6 decks, H17, DAS, Late Surrender, Peek, Estimated casino edge for these rules: 0.58 %. what would you expect that to cost you? a long run average of fifty eight cents lost per one hundred dollars bet, sorta thing. but of course short run, fluctuation may inflict a bit of pain or pleasure.

but anyway, then you'd have a bit of skin in the game. from there you could make a sort of non math certainty equivalent calculation of if or not you really want to give actual card counting a shot, sorta thing. similar to CE calculation where one has a proposition bet offering, of would you bet $100 on a coin flip or just take a free $10, or would you bet $50 on a coin flip or just take a free $5, or would you bet $10 on a coin flip or just take $1, on and on, ..... but you had to make one of those bets (maybe a condition of a free roll promo sorta thing).

but anyway, i'd recommend never forgetting your really advanced (imho) idea of not wanting to waste time, as you stated, " I'm afraid to waste time in ...".
if your old like me, you don't want to wake up to late and finally remember that it's everything, all about time!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hT_nvWreIhg

I never thought of just playing basic at low stakes without a varied bet just to get skin in the game. Thanks

 

[Morphy]

It's simple. Get a discard tray, shoe and 6 decks. Have a friend or family member deal to you if possible. Cut out 1.5 decks and play the shoe out making all the appropriate betting / playing decisions. Until you can play through a shoe or several shoes with no counting, betting or playing errors you should not step foot in a casino.

Thank you, as this is reassuring to me as I do all of the above mentioned,I have a discard tray, I play 6 decks and I do have my wife deal me except I do not cut out the last deck and a half. I will start doing so

 

[Meistro]

You should also have your wife try to short you on payouts. Have her try to push wins, mispay blackjacks, try to take your bet on pushes, etc. Watching for mispays that harm you is an important part of the AP's job. In addition to counting the cards you also need to count your hand and the dealer's hand so that you will be ready to correct any errors against you. You also want to not react when you have a dealer error in your favour, lest you give something away and clue in the dealer to their mistake. One effective technique is, after a dealer error is made in your favour, strike up a conversation with your fellow seat mates or the dealer about anything at all. That can prevent the dealer from double checking and noticing their error. If you want I can give you a skills test over webcam, where I watch you play through a shoe or multiple shoes and note any betting or playing decisions you make, since you may not be able to catch your own errors.

Mostly it's simply a matter of practice. The more you play the more adept you will become at instantly converting the running count to the true count and moving your bet with the count. Don't sweat it if you are not perfect right away. Put in the time. You will get there.

Wisefrog has a good idea that you should play a bit of basic strategy or even flat bet the minimum but count the cards and make playing decisions at your casino. Get the experience of the casino environment before you start risking big bets. Learn how to deal with distractions, make sure you are using all the right hand signals etc. Make sure you are learning the right deviations for your local game as well. Different rules mean different basic strategies and different playing indexes. Different rules can also mean different bet schedules, as you will have different advantages at the same true count with a more liberal rule set.

 

[gronbog]

I guess to be more specific, I'm afraid to waste time in my practice, so I am looking for the best methods of practice/training. I have read that everyone makes the occasional mistake, but is there a milestone at which I can say "Ok I am good enough at basic strategy/or counting"?

Yes -- you should be shooting for zero errors with no effort over the course of several hours. Everyone makes errors once they start to get tired and recognizing that and taking a break or quitting is part of being a successful player.

As for practice, only software or another experienced player can catch you on your errors. Continuing to practice using your software is essential until you get to that zero error mark and to keep you sharp after that.

30 years old, I have never sat down at a Blackjack table in my life.

Some real life casino experience at low stakes, once you play perfect basic strategy (again vetted by your software), will help to ease you into the environment. Try maintaining the count without actually acting on it while you interact with the dealer, the other players, the waitresses, the pit etc. Even after you have achieved zero errors on the software, this will open your eyes to what it really takes to be able to do this. And that's just the start. The hard part is doing it without while looking like just another gambler.

According to the software my accuracy is 91% with all my errors in the deviations, and I make about 3 counting mistakes per shoe.

All I know is that I am not even near ready.l

Don't get impatient. This rate of errors is unacceptable.

 

[Meistro]

Everyone makes errors once they start to get tired and recognizing that and taking a break or quitting is part of being a successful player.

I'm just quoting this to emphasize how accurate it is and how important it is to internalize this lesson. You will make fewer mistakes when you are fresh (early in the day) and more mistakes towards the end of the day when you are tired.

 

[ZeeBabar]

Frankly, whenever I had a couple of hundred dollars, I would go and play. Playing in a casino is the best way to learn. Go, stand and watch and count, if you can, wong in on positive counts, wong out at negative counts, play minimum bet games of $5 or less.

If you wong in with a minimum bet, nobody cares.

 

[Morphy]

You should also have your wife try to short you on payouts. Have her try to push wins, mispay blackjacks, try to take your bet on pushes, etc. Watching for mispays that harm you is an important part of the AP's job. In addition to counting the cards you also need to count your hand and the dealer's hand so that you will be ready to correct any errors against you. You also want to not react when you have a dealer error in your favour, lest you give something away and clue in the dealer to their mistake. One effective technique is, after a dealer error is made in your favour, strike up a conversation with your fellow seat mates or the dealer about anything at all. That can prevent the dealer from double checking and noticing their error. If you want I can give you a skills test over webcam, where I watch you play through a shoe or multiple shoes and note any betting or playing decisions you make, since you may not be able to catch your own errors.

Mostly it's simply a matter of practice. The more you play the more adept you will become at instantly converting the running count to the true count and moving your bet with the count. Don't sweat it if you are not perfect right away. Put in the time. You will get there.

Wisefrog has a good idea that you should play a bit of basic strategy or even flat bet the minimum but count the cards and make playing decisions at your casino. Get the experience of the casino environment before you start risking big bets. Learn how to deal with distractions, make sure you are using all the right hand signals etc. Make sure you are learning the right deviations for your local game as well. Different rules mean different basic strategies and different playing indexes. Different rules can also mean different bet schedules, as you will have different advantages at the same true count with a more liberal rule set.

Thank you

I just may take you up on the skype offer after a little more practice time. The thing that scares me is my local casino is a $15 minimum so of course i am hesitant to sit down and play

 

[Morphy]

Frankly, whenever I had a couple of hundred dollars, I would go and play. Playing in a casino is the best way to learn. Go, stand and watch and count, if you can, wong in on positive counts, wong out at negative counts, play minimum bet games of $5 or less.

If you wong in with a minimum bet, nobody cares.

I have never considered this. What count should I jump in at?

the issue i am having is that my local casino is a $15 min.


I am just not confident enough in my counting to be sure I am jumping in at the correct time

 

[sagefr0g]

I have never considered this. What count should I jump in at?

the issue i am having is that my local casino is a $15 min.


I am just not confident enough in my counting to be sure I am jumping in at the correct time

ahhh yes, i think ZeeBabar makes an excellent point about wonging in. and the thing is Morphy, now your making that min bet at an advantage, and heck if you do get the count wrong it's still the same as sitting at the table and min betting the table with basic strategy so using ZeeBarbars's idea your only in danger of the small house edge (in the long run) even if you do make a mistake. so ZeeBabar's idea of wonging in and out, is a more attractive option than just sitting playing basic strategy regardless of the count, sorta thing.
maybe wong in at tc = +2 and out at tc = +1 .
hopefully the rules and number of decks dealt at your local casino are 'decent'. but whatever, stay within your comfort zone far as how much money you risk, and don't be tempted to flat out gamble.
edit: and don't what ever you do, don't make the same mistake i did when i first tried counting cards, do not mistakenly sit at a csm bj table, lol

 

[KewlJ]

ahhh yes, i think ZeeBabar makes an excellent point about wonging in.

I disagree. There are some things that are sound as 'theory', but just impractical or even detrimental in real live play. An good example is splitting tens. In theory (mathematically) splitting tens is sound. But as a practical matter, splitting tens is detrimental to any hope of longevity.

Backcounting/wonging in falls into the same category. First of all, in many locations, low limit tables are crowded and that makes "wonging in" difficult at best. At higher limits, even only slightly higher like $25 minimum, entering mid shoe is often prohibited (NMSE).

But if you are fortunate enough to find a situation where wonging in can be practiced, IMO there is just no way to stand behind a table backcounting and then jump in that doesn't draw attention. I know there are players that say they act like they are watching the football game on TV ect, but believe me, you likely aren't fooling anyone. (Those that know me, probably know that I have my own, what I think is unique style of back-counting and wonging in, but I won't go into that here. )

So while, I don't believe you are fooling anyone, the question is do they care? At low limits, $5 or $10 minimum tables, maybe not at some places. But if they do, you are just drawing attention and likely prematurely ending your ability to play at what I am guessing is a local place. And even if you can "get away with it " at the $5/$10 games, it just is not applicable at higher play, so why even get started with something that isn't applicable as you grow and move forward.

IMO, the far superior method of eliminating at least some of the negative counts is to play off the top of a shuffle and then aggressively exit negative counts. This just looks more natural.

 

[sagefr0g]

I disagree. There are some things that are sound as 'theory', but just impractical or even detrimental in real live play. An good example is splitting tens. In theory (mathematically) splitting tens is sound. But as a practical matter, splitting tens is detrimental to any hope of longevity.

Backcounting/wonging in falls into the same category. First of all, in many locations, low limit tables are crowded and that makes "wonging in" difficult at best. At higher limits, even only slightly higher like $25 minimum, entering mid shoe is often prohibited (NMSE).

But if you are fortunate enough to find a situation where wonging in can be practiced, IMO there is just no way to stand behind a table backcounting and then jump in that doesn't draw attention. I know there are players that say they act like they are watching the football game on TV ect, but believe me, you likely aren't fooling anyone. (Those that know me, probably know that I have my own, what I think is unique style of back-counting and wonging in, but I won't go into that here. )

So while, I don't believe you are fooling anyone, the question is do they care? At low limits, $5 or $10 minimum tables, maybe not at some places. But if they do, you are just drawing attention and likely prematurely ending your ability to play at what I am guessing is a local place. And even if you can "get away with it " at the $5/$10 games, it just is not applicable at higher play, so why even get started with something that isn't applicable as you grow and move forward.

IMO, the far superior method of eliminating at least some of the negative counts is to play off the top of a shuffle and then aggressively exit negative counts. This just looks more natural.

excellent points imho, KJ. i definitely had some trepidation about those and other points for Morphy, and was frankly late last night just to lazy to write much about my thoughts on it.
other things as well, such as DSchles's most interesting voluminous writings on the matter, about Mr. Perfect, Wong-in Wong-Out and White Rabbit ect.
wonging i guess is really a rather complicated matter.
but anyway, i definitely like your point about Morphy could eliminate at least some of the negative counts by playing off the top of a shuffle and then aggressively exiting negative counts. which looks more natural.
and yes, if it's his local joint he wants to be and look squeaky clean in all aspects of his behavior, in the interest of longevity.
edit: and also i think you make a good point about, the idea that one might think they are fooling anyone. as the old saying goes, "Oh! What A Tangled Web We Weave When First We Practice To Deceive".

 

[Meistro]

Tt is important to split tens. At high true counts the gain in expected value can be significant. Generally what I will do is wait until true 7 or 8 before splitting. It's a pretty volatile play, since you are giving up a very likely win in exchange for putting more action in play with good but uncertain winning chances. So by waiting until the deck is even richer in tens and aces (compared to the expectation maximizing play at true 4-6) you can minimize your risk a bit AND minimize the cost to longevity. It is also a judgement call based on how much scrutiny your play is getting. But at very high true counts (7+) there is just too much money to be made to pass up on splitting tens.

 

[KewlJ]

Tt is important to split tens. At high true counts the gain in expected value can be significant. Generally what I will do is wait until true 7 or 8 before splitting. It's a pretty volatile play, since you are giving up a very likely win in exchange for putting more action in play with good but uncertain winning chances. So by waiting until the deck is even richer in tens and aces (compared to the expectation maximizing play at true 4-6) you can minimize your risk a bit AND minimize the cost to longevity. It is also a judgement call based on how much scrutiny your play is getting. But at very high true counts (7+) there is just too much money to be made to pass up on splitting tens.

I am sorry that I included ten splitting as part of my "good in theory, bad in actual practice" analogy, because it is likely to steer the discussion away from what is important to this newer OP.

Ten splitting is always worthy of it's own discussion. I have actually evolved some on the topic several times, each time moving away from the practice of doing it. First I evolved to a position similar to what you just posted. Hold off until higher counts to try to capture the biggest share of the benefit, while minimizing the negative aspect of drawing attention. Later to my current position that it just isn't worth it (to me) in almost any circumstances.

My short answer is that I agree with the conclusions of Ken Smith's article on this site, Why splitting tens is a bad idea. Bottom line is this play draws attention....period. Whether the pit is actually watching or not is irrelevant. That old saying about "only idiots and card counters split ten", absolutely applies. It won't take them long to figure out which you are and you won't be able to hide it or trick them for long.

In addition it draws what I call "secondary attention" more than any other play. Secondary attention is where other player's reactions draws the attention of the pit that might not have otherwise been drawn. There is a popular response when mentioning other players to say "There are other players at the table?" This is a case where that mentality does not apply. Their reaction can cost you negatively, so you need to consider it.

So the bottom line for me is that I have a rotation of about two dozen stores that I play regularly. And I play each of them multiple times per month. My top priority is longevity, and by identifying and playing within limits better tolerated by different casinos, and avoiding attention drawing plays, I have achieved and hope to maintain a status where I am tolerated. And the not splitting tens is definitely a part of that "not rocking the boat" mentality. My goal is to not draw attention, to not create a situation where the pit has to act against me (sometimes to cover their ass).

As far as the value of the play, yeah, it has value and as an EV guy, you feel like you are giving up some EV, especially when the count rises to those rare "golden" opportunities. But when I look at the big picture and weigh cost vs benefit, it really is a few dollars vs tens of thousands of dollars in future earnings. Or to put in in terms of one of my favorite phrases....."It's chasing pennies, when I like to concentrate on chasing dollars".