On Tipping, the math says no but

[ZeeBabar]

Colin says "math says, “don’t tip”. But the law, which exists in every philosophy, religion, or historical wisdom, says treat others as you would be treated. So what are we to do? Often times I look at the dealer and I see another struggling human being trying to make a living. Personally, I believe what I give ultimately is returned to me but that is at odds with the math. Tipping in a way is a bit of trust that things will ultimately work out. This one is a personal decision where you decide between the laws of math and spiritual laws.

Blackjack is a means of not only a bankroll growth, but the growth of your spirit and the growth of your humanity. Go not only for the money, but for the growth in who you are."

What say you?

 

[KewlJ]

So what is it....do you just have a list of 'trolly' things to post. Things that will get a reaction?

Tipping has been discussed many time (just like count debate) on many different sites that you are on. So why do we have to play this game?

 

[ZeeBabar]

So what is it....do you just have a list of 'trolly' things to post. Things that will get a reaction?

Tipping has been discussed many time (just like count debate) on many different sites that you are on. So why do we have to play this game?

I dont think like you do. I just read an email from BJAprentice, copied that section and posted it here. I did not sit here thinking I will "trolly" or whatever. What is mnd boggling is how you on this forum, a few pros on each of the forums are simply unable to resist questioning the ;poster instead of answering the OP or MOVING ON.

1.Do you think there are no new forum members who join this forum?
2.Do you think that like you, every newbie has an answer or has already resolved the question of tipping dealers?
3. For newbies, recreational gamblers, part time BJ players and others, searching archives or doing massive research is not a routine.

Most pros claim they have read Wong, Don S, Norm and others. While they have learbed AP BJ, they have not learned to be courteous and gentlemanly. Unlike those folks, some of you pros have a need to get on every post and ensure you attack the poster.

Just because you have read every post on every BJ forum on earth does not mean everybody has also done it.

 

[KewlJ]

I don't believe your intentions are pure, but in the holiday spirit I will indulge you.

First, occupation aside, lets talk about compassion and spirit and humanity. I personally feel for any human being that is struggling financially, including cases that were brought on by substance abuse or other poor decisions in life. I have a personal list of organizations that I support financially and up until very recently, I made it a point to get involved with more than just financial donations, by giving some of my time, really getting involved. Unfortunately, having been taken advantage of and feeling under-appreciated, I kind of got away from that earlier this year. Maybe I will be "moved" to get back into that.

One of my favorite things to is and I do this a couple times a month, is to go to the bank and get a couple hundred in $5 bills and then just hand them out to those begging and even the ones not begging that are obviously in need. A block or two on Fremont Street or a few intersections of pedestrian crosswalks over the strip, and you can go through a couple hundred dollars pretty quickly (and that's really a sad thing) And yes I know that every organization advises against handing money directly to "these" folks. I don't care. I am offer compasion...no strings attached. I don't care if they run out and buy a bottle of booze that is going to help them escape their predicament for a few hours, if that is their choice.

So, I don't feel I am lacking in compassion. BUT, I cannot support every person working at McDonalds or Walmart, and I am not talking about high school kids working a part-time job, I am talking middle aged adults trying to make ends meet. I can not supplement all of them, nor will I try. There are life choices, job choices, choices not to pursue education. I just can't support everyone stuck in some low paying job, who is having trouble making ends meet.

And this brings up to the dealers. Just like the adult working at McDonalds (I don't actually eat at McDonalds...just an example), I cannot support and supplement the income of these dealers. Many are doing just fine. But those at some sort of lower end property, have to take responsibility for where they are in life. Find a better job Find a second job.

And this brings me to the second point about Dealers. I just don't feel a dealer is a job like a bartenders or waiter/waitress that people should be tipping. It isn't providing a personalized service. It is a menial, mechanical type job. The only reason there is tipping involved is because the casino owners are pushing their responsibility to pay a fair wage onto the players. The owners and corporations are making plenty of money that they can pay a fair wage.

Now the math. As you stated and I guess you are getting this from Colin, the math says No. Card counters play to an extremely slim advantage and we just can't afford to give much away. And nothing would ever be enough anyway. Let's say, I decided I would tip 10% of my EV. I average about $80 an hour in EV. Some good games more, some mediocre games less. So $80/hr. Problem is I am NEVER at a table for an hour with my short session approach. Let's say I play for 30 minutes average (and in reality it less). Average EV for 30 minutes: $40...tipping 10%, that's $4. There is almost no situation that my $4 in tips would be appreciate, especially on a shoe with positive count and higher wagers. Here I am placing a few $400 wagers and winning and tipping $1 at a time? Or maybe I am fortunate and win a few max bets and walk away up 12-15 hundred dollars, do you think my $4 tip is appreciated? No! It is met with such disgust, I am better off not tipping...that is viewed as less offensive.

As a card counter the only case anyone has ever made that mathematically makes sense for tipping is if your tips are buying you better penetration or something along those lines. That makes sense. Problem is...THAT is collusion. Not a middle ground, but a clear definition of collusion. Yeah nothing likely to come of it, but it's morally wrong, on both the part of the player and dealer. Zee....YOU opened up the morality window. I don't want to win that way.

For my final thought, I am going to circle back to the owners pushing their responsibility off to the player. Because of this connection to possible collusion that I just laid out, the casino industry should have never even allowed tipping from the start. Pay the dealers a fair and decent wage and remove that possibility.

 

[xengrifter]

I believe what I give ultimately is returned to me but that is at odds with the math. Tipping in a way is a bit of trust that things will ultimately work out. This one is a personal decision where you decide between the laws of math and spiritual laws.

Blackjack is a means of not only a bankroll growth, but the growth of your spirit and the growth of your humanity. Go not only for the money, but for the growth in who you are."

What say you?

Don't tip, period.

 

[KewlJ]

Don't tip, period.

Well...that's what I said above. Sure a couple more words.

 

[Good Guy]

And just to make sure it will be a troll action, he is now bringing religion into it. How about this:
"Thou shall not feed the trolls"

 

[LC Larry]

I just read an email from BJAprentice...

Just look at the ridiculous amount they are charging for their "services" and you'll know what their agenda is.

 

[21forme]

Well...that's what I said above. Sure a couple more words.

Guess you took your T3 pill today? Geeze

To respond to the OP's numbered questions:

Most people aren't as stupid and lazy as you. Most people would click on the Search link and type in the word TIP and see what comes up. After reading previous discussions, if there was still an unanswered question, then most people would post their question

And most people would get answers to their questions, unlike the OP, because forums regulars are willing to help people who:
1. Are capable of learning
2. Have shown they they put in some effort to research and understand the issue first, but still need to clarify something.

 

[KewlJ]

Guess you took your T3 pill today? Geeze

Yeah, I know.

I'm sure I have given bits and pieces of my thoughts on the subject on various venues, but not sure I ever said my whole piece in one place. I just felt like doing so. My apologies to all.

Especially the collusion thing. I have expressed that sentiment before on some site (I don't remember which) and players just brush that off. But recently (not the show on GWAE yesterday) but recently I heard BoB N express the same sentiment, that tipping in exchange for better penetration, even unspoken, is collusion. I thought, finally someone agrees.

 

[Good Guy]

"I heard BoB N express the same sentiment, that tipping in exchange for better penetration, even unspoken, is collusion"

I would be really surprised if Bob N said or meant that. Improving the penetration does not by any stretch qualify as giving unfair advantage to a specific player or alter the intended outcome of the game. There are many parameters of improved service that will be beneficial for skilled players such as dealing fast, chatting less, pay more attention etc. If tipping results in improved conditions of the game, let it be. If a skilled player makes more money by improving the conditions, this is not collusion by any stretch. Improved penetration in fact makes more money for the casino by reducing shuffling time.

 

[21forme]

Penetration doesn't affect the odds of the game. That's determined by the rules.

However, preferential shuffloing DOES affect the odds of the game. has a casino ever been busted for that?

 

[KewlJ]

I would be really surprised if Bob N said or meant that. Improving the penetration does not by any stretch qualify as giving unfair advantage to a specific player or alter the intended outcome of the game. There are many parameters of improved service that will be beneficial for skilled players such as dealing fast, chatting less, pay more attention etc. If tipping results in improved conditions of the game, let it be. If a skilled player makes more money by improving the conditions, this is not collusion by any stretch. Improved penetration in fact makes more money for the casino by reducing shuffling time.

You are conflating two things...what is illegal and unethical. Deeper penetration is not illegal. I could ask for deeper penetration, but likely wouldn't be granted. So If I ask the dealer for deeper penetration and he says no, and then I say, I'll give you $10 for deeper penetration and he agrees, that is some kind of boundary that has been crossed...maybe not to illegality, but ethically.

AND it becomes a very slippery slope. At this point we have a dealer who is financially benefiting more from the player winning. Next thing you know a player losing hand is mis-payed as a push and /or a pushed hand mis-payed as a win. The casino industry should have never created a situation where the dealer is "pulling" for the player because he benefits financially. The casino industry should have bent over backward to avoid this.

 

[KewlJ]

Penetration doesn't affect the odds of the game. That's determined by the rules.

However, preferential shuffling DOES affect the odds of the game. has a casino ever been busted for that?

Preferential shuffling is one that Bob can really go off on. If you ever are having a private conversation with him, ask him his opinion on preferential shuffling. But be warned....have plenty of time.

 

[BoSox]

As a card counter the only case anyone has ever made that mathematically makes sense for tipping is if your tips are buying you better penetration or something along those lines. That makes sense. Problem is...THAT is collusion. Not a middle ground, but a clear definition of collusion. Yeah nothing likely to come of it, but it's morally wrong, on both the part of the player and dealer.

This is very good information for somewhat bigger cc players, those who often play in big rooms where expectations for tipping is high, especially when the cards are running well. KJ, the two quotes of yours that I just posted fit together perfectly. Starting with the very key words in the first quote:

"Yeah nothing likely to come of it"

The problem here is the term "nothing likely" is far from definitive and leaves the door open for any conceivable suspected reason however small, and the possibility for temporary detention, and to make your life miserable. At times I play in these rooms and avoid tipping, and I am disliked by some of the dealers, even though I am highly respectful, to which I could care less if they think I am cheep or not. I am not looking for an excuse not to tip a dealer, I just do not tip dealers. One place I play at is on a sovereign nation which is reason enough for apprehension, but your great post KJ will go into my memory bank thanks.

For my final thought, I am going to circle back to the owners pushing their responsibility off to the player. Because of this connection to possible collusion that I just laid out, the casino industry should have never even allowed tipping from the start.

 

[KewlJ]

The problem here is the term "nothing likely" is far from definitive and leaves the door open for any conceivable suspected reason however small, and the possibility for temporary detention, and to make your life miserable.

As per this discussion, I have been sitting here recalling a few incidents where the dealers made errors in my favor. Anybody that plays even somewhat regularly has had this happen, as well as errors against you. That happens. But these 4 incidents and there are probably a few more, but these 4 made me so uncomfortable, they are still vivid in my memory. They all went down about the same way and two were at the same pretty small location by different dealers. A place that used to be "terrible", but is now something else.

So you have max bet or a "bigger" bet out and you lose and dealer treats as a push or you push and are paid. It usually isn't a lost hand that is paid (maybe that's too obvious or dangerous). So you figure that is part of the game, happens both ways and try not to act too unnatural. When you finally make eye contact with the dealer, he/she (one instance was a female) is glaring at you. Almost telling you "yeah I did that". At least twice there was a second mis-pay that followed, shortly after, just in case there was any doubt.

The thing to do would be to get up and get out immediately, but I confess I never did that. You will remember I said "max bet or bigger bet" and it just goes against everything in my fiber to walk mid-shoe from that situation. I am so stubborn that once I had a backoff looming, suits closing in and stayed for one more hand.

But while I don't exit immediately, I do exit at the shuffle. And I damn sure don't tip a dime, which of course is what the dealer is looking for. If someone is watching this dealer, and if they aren't now, they will be before long....I don't want any appearance that I was some willing part of anything.

The one odd thing that I could never figure is why? I mean maybe if they kept there own tips? But whatever. I just want no part of it. You can call me old fashion, whatever, but I like to win fairly. I certainly don't want any cheating, but I don't even want any 'special' treatment like deeper penetration. I scout and find the games I want to play and that's all I want.

 

[Good Guy]

The dealer was not making these errors on purpose or to get tips. These things happened and some people are more prone to these errors than others.

 

[ZeeBabar]

Guess you took your T3 pill today? Geeze

To respond to the OP's numbered questions:

Most people aren't as stupid and lazy as you. Most people would click on the Search link and type in the word TIP and see what comes up. After reading previous discussions, if there was still an unanswered question, then most people would post their question

And most people would get answers to their questions, unlike the OP, because forums regulars are willing to help people who:
1. Are capable of learning
2. Have shown they they put in some effort to research and understand the issue first, but still need to clarify something.

21forme, I Am Disappointed That You Are Still So Obsessed With Me. Seems There Are Folks Interested In Making A Discussion Out Of Tipping. Kewlj Provided The Sort Of Answer That Increases The Examination Of The Rkle Of Tipping.

Stop Embarassing Yourself And Either Adress The oP Or Move On, Show Some Disciplind.

 

[BoSox]

The dealer was not making these errors on purpose or to get tips.

In most cases that is true, but there is the occasional rare dealer who is instigating a possible short term agreement without any words needed to be said. Play at your own risk, not something I would want to be a part of.

 

[21forme]

The dealer was not making these errors on purpose or to get tips. These things happened and some people are more prone to these errors than others.

I agree. It's not on purpose. Even the best dealers make mistakes from time to time (and paying a push seems to be the most common one). Don't read more into it than is really there.

Zee, this thread has morphed into an interesting discussion among the adults. Go back to your room.