OPP, Uston 5 and 10-counts... worth trying these days?

[AlabamaIceman]

I know I know, trying for a count that is so easy to keep is bound to also mean it is not as effective... and I am working on my Hi-Lo and trying to get better, but I'm curious.

Do any of the "simpler" counts like the original 5's and ten's or the new OPP (aka "Speed Count") still have enough worth vs. the risk of losing one of the harder ones?

From what I understand, the OPP count can be played with some modified BS and from the betting points you might not be as obvious of a counter as well... but I'm not sure if that would be worth any potential drop in profitability over the long run.

Short version: I'm trying to convince myself that there is no "easy" count that works as well.

 

[QFIT]

Simple answer about simple counts: No.

 

[AlabamaIceman]

Simple answer about simple counts: No.

That's what I thought.

On the the subject on non-"simple" counts though, is the Hi-Lo really the best place to start? I can count through a deck dealt in pairs in about 45 seconds... no idea how that would work in a real scenario.

At that point, would it be to my benefit to start learning another slightly more accurate count, or is the Hi-Lo still a good platform to learn on once I try it in a real casino environment?

 

[zengrifter]

On the the subject on non-"simple" counts though, is the Hi-Lo really the best place to start? I can count through a deck dealt in pairs in about 45 seconds... no idea how that would work in a real scenario.

Needs to be consistently under 25-secs.*

*See ZGI page 20

 

[kewljason]

Needs to be consistently under 25-secs.*

*See ZGI page 20

I have never understood the importance placed on counting down a deck in X amount of seconds. I have never even counted down a deck, so have no idea how fast or slow I would be. I have always practiced (and still do) by dealing hands to myself or computer dealing hands which more accurately simulates the way the game is played. As long as you can count and stay ahead of the dealer, you are fine. And if the dealer is going to fast, just slow him/her down. :laugh: The player controls the speed of the game, not the dealer.

At this point of my career, I appreciate a quick dealer as I am sure most of you regulars do, as time really is money, but sometimes I like to slow the dealer down just to annoy them. It really can throw a quick dealer off their game. They start making all kinds of mistakes and get frustrated waiting. I know that's cruel, but sometimes we need a little entertainment to break up the monotony.

 

[zengrifter]

I have never understood the importance placed on counting down a deck in X amount of seconds. I have never even counted down a deck, so have no idea how fast or slow I would be.

25 seconds is a commonly accepted threshhold.
Try it now, two cards at a time face up - tell us how fast you are.

Conversely, how fast are you with practice software? zg

 

[kewljason]

25 seconds is a commonly accepted threshhold.
Try it now, two cards at a time face up - tell us how fast you are.

Conversely, how fast are you with practice software? zg

29 seconds going one card at a time. I suppose with practice I could get my fingers to turn the cards faster. :laugh: Not sure how you do 2 cards at a time? But, I still say that is no way to practice or learn to count.

 

[zengrifter]

29 seconds going one card at a time. I suppose with practice I could get my fingers to turn the cards faster. :laugh: Not sure how you do 2 cards at a time? But, I still say that is no way to practice or learn to count.

Hold the deck face up and throw two cards at a time. 29 secs one card a time is fairly fast. zg

 

[kewljason]

Hold the deck face up and throw two cards at a time. 29 secs one card a time is fairly fast. zg

But it doesn't matter. Until the game is dealt that way, it is a useless skill. You should practice simulating the actual game. It's like having a guy that can throw a 105 mph fastball that no one can hit. (like the Cincinnati Reds did) When he got into the game in the playoffs, he couldn't throw it over the plate and walked 3 guys and hit one, while getting no one out. So how fast he threw the ball was totally irrelivent. :laugh:

 

[zengrifter]

But it doesn't matter. Until the game is dealt that way, it is a useless skill. You should practice simulating the actual game. It's like having a guy that can throw a 105 mph fastball that no one can hit. (like the Cincinnati Reds did) When he got into the game in the playoffs, he couldn't throw it over the plate and walked 3 guys and hit one, while getting no one out. So how fast he threw the ball was totally irrelivent. :laugh:

Its like batting practice, kid. How fast? zg

 

[Jack_Black]

But it doesn't matter. Until the game is dealt that way, it is a useless skill. You should practice simulating the actual game. It's like having a guy that can throw a 105 mph fastball that no one can hit. (like the Cincinnati Reds did) When he got into the game in the playoffs, he couldn't throw it over the plate and walked 3 guys and hit one, while getting no one out. So how fast he threw the ball was totally irrelivent. :laugh:

but what about a guy that can throw accurately, but throws about 55mph? The point is, counting down a deck that fast is just one of the mechanics of learning the counting game. it's also a good confirmation of your skill level. i.e., if you can count it that fast, then you can move on to the next step, indices, BS, chatting while counting(silently). Or, if you're a successful counter, (making money and not getting 86'ed) I'm sure you can count a deck down that fast without training for it.

I learned my first count (hilo) that way. really boring. When I moved onto hi opt 2, I only could count it down to about 45 secs, and got tired of drilling, so I went ahead and used it in a casino. Of course, at this point in my career, I'm more familiar with the other aspects of the game, so it wasn't that bad while I was at the casino. I DO NOT RECOMMEND complete beginners to do what I did for hi opt 2.

 

[WRX]

I am working on my Hi-Lo and trying to get better, but I'm curious. Do any of the "simpler" counts like the original 5's and ten's or the new OPP (aka "Speed Count") still have enough worth vs. the risk of losing one of the harder ones?

Just pick a solid level one count, balanced or unbalanced, and go with it. Counting is easy. Getting basic strategy down cold is the harder part. Learning and applying play indices is the harder part.

 

[QFIT]

Just pick a solid level one count, balanced or unbalanced, and go with it. Counting is easy. Getting basic strategy down cold is the harder part. Learning and applying play indices is the harder part.

Well put.

 

[southAP]

Personally I see how fast I can count down a deck just for self satisfaction. I also look for fast dealers to optimize how many hands I can get in per hour. As for beginners there should be no stress on counting down as fast as you can, focus on being accurate with bs, counting, then indices in that order. It pretty much comes down to accuracy over speed.

 

[BUZZARD]

getting basic strategy down? the hard part? If u EVER make a mistake here even if your twelve beers in you had better not be trying seriously with any real money at that point. OP-If you are confident in your progress with hi-lo then stay with that- Have you considered KO?- Indices are a breeze- mistakes should be very rare- forget the true count for a while and see how that suits you. Your looking at about half as many play variations. Your probably better off with hi-lo if u wanna go that route but if your brain is small, like mine is, you can violate the casinos just the same with KO and it is SIMPLE.

 

[BJLFS]

BTW. I would go though a deck practicing counting and could usually tell what the last card was. However when using Casino Verite' I couldn't believe how far off my count was when using simulation software!! I think that practicing with a regular deck is fine but to find out how much progress you've made and your accuracy use the simulation software!

Also, when using the simulation software start out a speed that you can handle then crank it up little by little. Make it so it's barely preceptable that the speed has increased. Then every couple of days or so keep turning it up slightly. In a dew weeks you'll be going so fast you won't realize it!

 

[zengrifter]

BTW. I would go though a deck practicing counting and could usually tell what the last card was. However when using Casino Verite' I couldn't believe how far off my count was when using simulation software!! I think that practicing with a regular deck is fine but to find out how much progress you've made and your accuracy use the simulation software!

Also, when using the simulation software start out a speed that you can handle then crank it up little by little. Make it so it's barely preceptable that the speed has increased. Then every couple of days or so keep turning it up slightly. In a dew weeks you'll be going so fast you won't realize it!

Concur. zg

 

[moo321]

I cracked nine seconds once.

 

[WrongWayWade]

Count full hands, not cards

Just pick a solid level one count, balanced or unbalanced, and go with it. Counting is easy. Getting basic strategy down cold is the harder part. Learning and applying play indices is the harder part.

I agree with WRX in a big way here. The basic strategy came with time (I kept a BS card on the table for a LONG time, heck, I think it was good cover.) I've added 22 positive indexes and those have come pretty easily, and now I have 22 negative indexes and I'm getting those down cold as well.

I started with OPPC and had success with it (200 units over 9000 hands), spreading from 10-75 mostly at 2-deck games. It certainly is better than not counting at all and makes it VERY easy to BS with the players, suits and the dealer and look like you're not concentrating on the cards.

I have since 'graduated' to using Red7 and perhaps just by coincidence or perhaps not, my win rate has gone up by a lot. It turns out my fear of having to count 9-1/2 of 13 cards instead of 5 of 13 was unfounded, and I seldom fail to get and keep the count with Red7.

I also find 'counting down a deck' to be unimportant, as I count each blackjack HAND as it is played, not cards one at a time. Playing mostly face down games, it became far easier just to wait until each hand it completed, (busted or shown face up) and count that, never getting confused if I had counted 'that card' already. It is second nature to count completed hands of 4 or 5 cards with a single number at a single glance. I don't try to count the cards as they fall; I always wait until each hand (including mine) is complete. I've stuck with this same pattern with face up games as well.

If I come upon a close strategy decision, I'll scan the cards I see to perhaps tweak that decision, but still maintain the count the way I describe above.

Counting random groups of cards in a shuffled deck doesn't really coincide with the skill of counting completed blackjack hands.

 

[21gunsalute]

Its like batting practice, kid. How fast? zg

No, it's more like practicing hitting a ball off a tee...and then facing an 88 MPH slider for the first time
!