Optimal Betting/Sim Information Request

[Pelerus]

I am currently using a Mac and am going to be investing in a PC Simulator and a copy of Windows before too long in order to be able to run Casino Vérité and CVData, but in the meanwhile I would be very grateful if someone could run a few sims and optimal betting calculations for me! I am looking for the primary relevant stats (RoR, S Dev, N0, etc.) as well as bet ramps for several different combinations - but anything you can give me is much appreciated.

The game conditions are 8 deck, S17, DOA, DAS, LS, RS4, 80-88% pen, table minimum $10 or $15, and typically 4-6 players per table (sometimes 2 or 3, almost never heads up).

The counts are 1) Hi-lo with I18/Fab4 or 2) Zen with equivalent.

Wonging in at +1 or +2 and wonging out at -1 or -2.

Bankroll is $4,500.

Again, thank you for any information you guys can give me.

 

[moo321]

We would need to know your bet size and each count.

 

[Pelerus]

We would need to know your bet size and each count.

I am open to suggestions on bet size, so I didn't want to be specific on that - but I typically spread from $10 to $120:

-2 to 0 = $10 (if I don't wong sooner)
+1 = $20
+2 = $40
+3 = $65
+4 = $90
+5 = $120

But this is, as I said, open to change.

Edit: this is with Hi-lo.

 

[jack.jackson]

Are you looking for just a quick overview?(CVCX/Canned sim or Custom sim) or something a little "more in detail" and thorough, like CVData??

Note that CVCX, probably has a canned sim for this game, and if your using the "trial version" you can import these canned sims from QFIT'S website. Once imported, you can now modify it's contents, with-in a limited range.

 

[Pelerus]

Are you looking for just a quick overview?(CVCX/Canned sim or Custom sim) or something a little "more in detail" and thorough, like CVData??

Whatever you can give me, I'll take - I am basically looking for EV, RoR, SDev, N0, and a betting ramp. I realize that some information (such as EV) requires a betting ramp to be input, so the one I specified above could serve as a basis (but I am open to changing that for greater efficiency if possible).

Note that CVCX, probably has a canned sim for this game, and if your using the "trial version" you can import these canned sims from QFIT'S website. Once imported, you can now modify it's contents, with-in a limited range.

I will definitely look into that along with their other products, but I believe CVCX also requires a PC or PC Simulator if running on Mac?

 

[PrinceDragon]

Here's a canned sim from CVCX:
Hilo with Sweet 16&Fab 4,as you can see,your bet sizes are very close to the optimal bet sizing,but the ROR is high,if you DOUBLE your BR,,your ROR will reduce to around 2%
Hope this helps
P.D.

 

[Pelerus]

Thanks PrinceDragon, that is exactly what I needed.

I am in the process of switching from hi-lo to Zen right now, because although I will still be playing shoes for a while, I am also hoping to make the most of pitch game opportunities in the future. Would it be possible to post a similar sim for the Zen count with corresponding bet sizing?

 

[PrinceDragon]

Thanks PrinceDragon, that is exactly what I needed.

I am in the process of switching from hi-lo to Zen right now, because although I will still be playing shoes for a while, I am also hoping to make the most of pitch game opportunities in the future. Would it be possible to post a similar sim for the Zen count with corresponding bet sizing?

Can't find any Canned sims with those settings,so i ran one for ya.
Complete Zen with S16/F4,Full Deck resolution.
As for bet sizing,from what i know,most people max out @TC8 in zen count

P.D.

 

[jack.jackson]

Sorry I didnt get back to you Pelerus. I did plan on it, at least. Been a little busy, the last couple of days. When I find a little bit of leisure time, ill update this thread with a CVData sim.

 

[ohbehave]

Thanks PrinceDragon, that is exactly what I needed.

I am in the process of switching from hi-lo to Zen right now, because although I will still be playing shoes for a while, I am also hoping to make the most of pitch game opportunities in the future. Would it be possible to post a similar sim for the Zen count with corresponding bet sizing?

If your switching to Zen and playing pitch you might want to consider the OPP count.

I know people don't think much of OPP but I've simmed Zen, HiLo, and OPP for DD with a 5:1 spread. Zen beats OPP by about 11%. In my opinion not enough difference to justify the complexity. However, this may be a minority opinion or maybe people are unaware of how closely OPP matches up. OPP edged HiLo by 5%.

OPP is silly easy. But seems well suited for DD.

 

[Pelerus]

Complete Zen with S16/F4,Full Deck resolution.

Thanks again PD. It actually seems like Hi-lo is outperforming Zen with the customized bets for Hi-lo maxing at +5 and Zen maxing at +8: $24.54/hour and 13.9% RoR for the former, $24.06/hour and 18.0%(!) RoR for the latter. However, under the optimized conditions (I assume optimized for bankroll growth) it appears to be more complex: Hi-lo at $23.16/hour and 12.9% RoR, Zen at $17.71/hour and 8.6% RoR.

Sorry I didnt get back to you Pelerus. I did plan on it, at least. Been a little busy, the last couple of days. When I find a little bit of leisure time, ill update this thread with a CVData sim.

No problem - I look forward to it, and maybe you can clear up some of my present confusion on the Hi-lo/Zen comparison in this situation.

As for the OPP count, I hadn't heard of it, but after your posting I found a Blackjack Forum Online page about it - interesting and novel methodology, although on that page Zilzer only claims "a betting power equivalent to 82+% of the standard Hi Lo system." My main reason for choosing Zen is the wish for an (at least somewhat) more powerful system capable of handling a variety of games, as I really was not looking forward to learning a second count to complement Hi-lo, or even two other multi-parameter counts! This desire for a single count also led me away from Hi-Opt II and Omega II, two level 2 systems like Zen, but that use Ace side counts, which are not recommended for shoe games.

Of course, I suppose I could always use Wong Halves with side-counted Aces for pitch games...:whip:

 

[jack.jackson]

Thanks again PD. It actually seems like Hi-lo is outperforming Zen with the customized bets for Hi-lo maxing at +5 and Zen maxing at +8: $24.54/hour and 13.9% RoR for the former, $24.06/hour and 18.0%(!) RoR for the latter. However, under the optimized conditions (I assume optimized for bankroll growth) it appears to be more complex: Hi-lo at $23.16/hour and 12.9% RoR, Zen at $17.71/hour and 8.6% RoR.



No problem - I look forward to it, and maybe you can clear up some of my present confusion on the Hi-lo/Zen comparison in this situation.

As for the OPP count, I hadn't heard of it, but after your posting I found a Blackjack Forum Online page about it - interesting and novel methodology, although on that page Zilzer only claims "a betting power equivalent to 82+% of the standard Hi Lo system." My main reason for choosing Zen is the wish for an (at least somewhat) more powerful system capable of handling a variety of games, as I really was not looking forward to learning a second count to complement Hi-lo, or even two other multi-parameter counts! This desire for a single count also led me away from Hi-Opt II and Omega II, two level 2 systems like Zen, but that use Ace side counts, which are not recommended for shoe games.

Of course, I suppose I could always use Wong Halves with side-counted Aces for pitch games...:whip:

Dont make the same mistake I did, and worry to much about what system to use. Its really, not the system, but how well you can use it. Unless, your playing 50 min units,(or higher) single and DD, its really not gonna make that much of a difference to your WR. Regardless of what system you choose, your still gonna have to sandbag(wongout) a little bit. Especially against MD. Go with Zen,RPC,or Hi-lo and Wong that ****, comp-hustle and use a few scavenger plays and you'll be good to go.

As for SC aces, with already ace-reckoned strategies, I actually forgot how you do that.
Theres a pretty good explanation of it, on QFIT'S website.

 

[Pelerus]

As for SC aces, with already ace-reckoned strategies, I actually forgot how you do that. Theres a pretty good explanation of it, on QFIT'S website.

From QFIT: "Originally, some people side-counted aces when playing single deck with Wong Halves. This is so complex that the tables are no longer in print."

Hence the and the :whip:! I was actually j/k about attempting Halves with a side count, and as you said I think Zen seems to be a good fit right now...if it doesn't work out, I can always transition back to Hi-Lo - which is why I am interested in the comparison between the two under the above game conditions.

 

[FLASH1296]

"11% is not enough"

Is that what you said ?

 

[FLASH1296]

ZEN (and Unbalanced Zen) is far superior to ALL Level One counts, Hi-Lo included.

I will stake my reputation on that statement.

Posting anything to the contrary is absurdly misleading.

Re: Shoe Games ZEN is , in my opinion, the best choice you can make.

 

[Pelerus]

ZEN (and Unbalanced Zen) is far superior to ALL Level One counts, Hi-Lo included.

I will stake my reputation on that statement.

Posting anything to the contrary is absurdly misleading.

Re: Shoe Games ZEN is , in my opinion, the best choice you can make.

That is the clear impression I had going into this thread, so I was a bit surprised at the results of the first two sims in comparison.

 

[PrinceDragon]

Here you go,Assuming you W.I.@TC+2,W.O.@-1(both sims)
bet sizing

0 1 2 3 4 5
1 2 4 6 8 12
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
1 1 2 4 6 6 8 8 12

ROR are around 13% for a 5K BR.
Hope it helps
P.D.

 

[Pelerus]

Thanks PD, that clarifies the situation for me. So it looks like Zen is outperforming Hi-Lo here by about 6.5%, $19.78/hour vs. $18.58. The Zen player is participating in a lot more hands though (124k vs. 85k), I assume because a +2 TC occurs more frequently in Zen than in Hi-Lo, and that same wong-in point was used for both sims.

The bet sizing looks good too, if I can play to a 5k BR with 13% RoR, which is about full Kelly I believe.

 

[PrinceDragon]

Thanks PD, that clarifies the situation for me. So it looks like Zen is outperforming Hi-Lo here by about 6.5%, $19.78/hour vs. $18.58. The Zen player is participating in a lot more hands though (124k vs. 85k), I assume because a +2 TC occurs more frequently in Zen than in Hi-Lo, and that same wong-in point was used for both sims.

The bet sizing looks good too, if I can play to a 5k BR with 13% RoR, which is about full Kelly I believe.

Hilo vs Zen:

BC PE IC
97 51 76
96 63 85

Most of the gain from Zen count in shoe games come from IC,that's assuming u use only the top 20+ indices...IMO
Generally Zen outperform Hilo about 5-10% in shoes,depends on how many indices you learn.So in order to max the gain from Zen,try to learn more indices.
I use 50+ indices personally
In fact,the ROR is higher for Zen count in these sims,probably because of the bet schedule,and SCORE is lower also

P.D.

 

[FLASH1296]

As everyone who is a serious BJ Player owns a copy of Blackjack Attack, 3rd edition, I simply direct everyone to the numerous simulation results tables demonstrating ZEN's significant superiority to Hi-Lo, K.O., etc.