Playing against 8 deck shoe...

K

kmartonik

Member
I recently took up blackjack and have moved onto try out card counting with the +1/-1 point system. In the beginning, the casino I've played at had 5 and 6 deck shoes. I was winning most of the time. Now I noticed they've gone to 8 deck shoes and I've been losing most of the time. I'm wondering if it's the 8 decks (because advantage % goes down) of if it could be possible cheating or both? I've sat at a table and had them change dealers more often than usual. Should I move to another casino that doesn't use 8 decks????? Thanks for any advice... :) Kar
 
halcyon1234

halcyon1234

Well-Known Member
kmartonik said:
I recently took up blackjack and have moved onto try out card counting with the +1/-1 point system. In the beginning, the casino I've played at had 5 and 6 deck shoes. I was winning most of the time. Now I noticed they've gone to 8 deck shoes and I've been losing most of the time. I'm wondering if it's the 8 decks (because advantage % goes down) of if it could be possible cheating or both? I've sat at a table and had them change dealers more often than usual. Should I move to another casino that doesn't use 8 decks????? Thanks for any advice... :) Kar
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Some thoughts:

1) What is the penetration of those 8 decks? IE: How many decks do they deal before they shuffle?
2) Pound-for-pound, the more decks = less player edge.
3) Are you doing a Running Count to True Count conversion? That is, take whatever count you have, and divide it by the number of undealt decks. If you haven't been doing this, then your counts are all off. A Running Count of 12 with 2 decks dealt out would be 3 in a 6-deck shoe, but would only be 2 in a 8 deck shoe. You may be overbetting the count, thinking it is higher than it is.
4) Variance sucks. You might be experiencing a bit of negative variance.
5) If you can find another casino that offers good rules, but fewer decks, always go for that casino.
 
S

shadroch

Well-Known Member
kmartonik said:
I recently took up blackjack and have moved onto try out card counting with the +1/-1 point system. In the beginning, the casino I've played at had 5 and 6 deck shoes. I was winning most of the time. Now I noticed they've gone to 8 deck shoes and I've been losing most of the time. I'm wondering if it's the 8 decks (because advantage % goes down) of if it could be possible cheating or both? I've sat at a table and had them change dealers more often than usual. Should I move to another casino that doesn't use 8 decks????? Thanks for any advice... :) Kar
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If you are not spreading your bets at least 1-6,you SHOULD be losing.To win,you need an even bigger spread.
If the casino wasn't cheating when you were winning,i doubt it is now.
The more decks,the bigger the spread you need.Thats why you should always play with the fewest decks you can,as long as the rules are the same.
 
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Automatic Monkey

Automatic Monkey

Banned
kmartonik said:
I recently took up blackjack and have moved onto try out card counting with the +1/-1 point system. In the beginning, the casino I've played at had 5 and 6 deck shoes. I was winning most of the time. Now I noticed they've gone to 8 deck shoes and I've been losing most of the time. I'm wondering if it's the 8 decks (because advantage % goes down) of if it could be possible cheating or both? I've sat at a table and had them change dealers more often than usual. Should I move to another casino that doesn't use 8 decks????? Thanks for any advice... :) Kar
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A 8D shoe is nobody's first choice but it really isn't much of a disadvantage. The addition of any beneficial rule for the player (resplitting aces, late surrender, dealer stand on soft 17) makes an 8D shoe better than a 6D one. Penetration is also more important, and an additional penetration of only 9 or 10 cards makes an 8D shoe as good as a 6D one.

The thing you didn't mention is what negative count do you get out of the game? Hopefully you are not playing negative hands with a 1-6 spread, are you? That's the killer. You can get away with small spreads if you are diligent about only playing positive counts. The smaller the spread, the more diligent you have to be.
 
K

kmartonik

Member
Thanks for the comments here...

Well... I am new to this and have been practicing the counting system. Finally went to the casino and have been keeping up pretty well w/ the count as long as I don't have more than 2 beers. Hahaha So, what I generally do is start at $5 and play that for a couple hands. Then when the count gets to +2 or +3 I up it to $10 and try to stay with that for a couple hands. But if the count goes down to -1 or below, I drop back down to $5. If it goes up to +4 or above, I go up to $20-$25, sometimes all at once and sometimes over 2 hands or so. I'm still messing up my counts a little especially with the True count. It's usually an 8 deck shoe... about 1 1/2 to 2 decks cut off... I usually go with about $300 in my pocket (buy in for $100 at a time) and sometimes last for 3 hrs but now with very little winnings, if any. O.k... new guestion... you just sat down at a table, with new start of shoe, $5 min bet and bought $100 buy in. You play for maybe 1/2 hr and are up $50-$100.... In 1/2 hr only! :D Would you walk away??
 
K

kmartonik

Member
Another question...

I'm just making sure I understand correctly... ok... You have an 8 deck shoe with 2 decks cut off in the beginning. The count is +2 after 1 deck gone (plus 2 cut off). You divide +2 by 5 = +.4 ($5 bet)........... a +6 with 3 decks (plus 2 cut off) would be 6 divde by 3 = +2 ($10 bet)........... am I doing this correctly?? :eek:
 
Sonny

Sonny

Well-Known Member
kmartonik said:
You have an 8 deck shoe with 2 decks cut off in the beginning. The count is…+6 with 3 decks (plus 2 cut off) would be 6 divde by 3 = +2 ($10 bet)……am I doing this correctly?? :eek:
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That is not correct. With 3 decks in the discard tray there are still 5 decks left. Don’t ignore the cutoffs! In this case you would divide +3 by 5 to get a TC of zero. The house still has the advantage so don’t raise your bet yet. You will probably want to wait until a TC of +2 before you start raising your bets. That means you need a RC of at least +10 with 3 decks in the discard tray.

The TC is the "count per unseen decks" so you have to include all unseen cards in the denominator. Similarly, if you walk up to a game where two decks have already been dealt (unseen) and you start counting, you will have to include those unseen decks in your division. You must divide the RC by all cards that you have not counted.

-Sonny-
 
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K

kmartonik

Member
I think it's making more sense now

Ok.... thanks to all of you... I think this makes more sense now... no wonder I've been so thrown off. :eek: I guess it's all in the way we learn eh??
So, you can come into a game, at any time, start counting from 0 and take the running count then divide by the number of unseen cards (in shoe and discard pile) and continue on from there? I've only been waiting to play when a new shoe begins, which I would take the running count and divide by # of decks left in shoe. Also, if I've messed up my running count, I would just stop counting all together thinking it would be all wrong. Am I understanding that correctly? If I sit down in the middle of a shoe, and there are 2 decks in discard pile. 9 cards on the table adding to +3. Would I take +3 and divide by 8 (2 decks in discard/6 in shoe) = 0?? Then continue on at that point dividing by the decks left in shoe only? I think I'm understanding it more if this is correct.... Also, so when I sit down at the beginning of a new shoe.... I would keep the running count and divide by the # of decks left in shoe (excluding discard pile because they are part of my running total.) Hopefully I understand this finally... thanks for all the help!;)
 
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zengrifter

zengrifter

Banned
kmartonik said:
So, you can come into a game, at any time, start counting from 0 and take the running count then divide by the number of unseen cards (in shoe and discard pile) and continue on from there?
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Yes. AND ALSO exit out and go to a new/fresh shoe at TC -1.5. zg
 
K

kmartonik

Member
Any recommendations?

Does anyone have a recommendation for a good book that teaches more detail of counting cards? I bought Beat the Dealer, but I felt it was kind of vague on actual bet strategies while counting. Thanks, Kar :)
 
ChefJJ

ChefJJ

Well-Known Member
You may want to try using an unbalanced count like KO so you don't have to convert it to the TC. Makes it easier when you are drinking :p

Good luck
 
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