Playing as a Pro

Discussion in 'Skilled Play - Card Counting, Advanced Strategies' started by tribute, Mar 13, 2009.

  1. Bojack1

    Bojack1 Well-Known Member

    I have nothing against grinders, grinding it out full time means you have achieved a level of success that most AP's will never see. Not to mention most who try advantage play will fail, and those who don't, usually can't depend on it for anything but some recreational release and maybe a little money on the side. My point is just what you are making here, if you have the means and want to do better, why not? You aspire to make 6 figures, great, go for it. To wallow in a low income grind when it does not need to be that way, is in my opinion a form of sado masochism. There are exceptions to this of course. If you are already retired from some other form of working and have a pension or some other type of income supplementing your gaming income, there may be no need to make more than what is being referred to as the grind amount.

    You say you are proud to be a grinder, well thats good. If you say that even 10 years from now I'll say you are a fool. When you take on the idea of playing BJ full time with very little money, it means one thing to me, you are not pulling your full weight in life. I may be wrong but you sound as if you're young and when you started this dream so to speak, you may not have been paying your own way in life soley on your income. Maybe you were, or are still living with your parents, and haven't really experienced the full brunt of the expenses it takes for a life beyond just existing. I will tell you this, never, never ever, will a $5000 bankroll cut it for fulltime BJ play while being able to support yourself. But being able to build on it while getting help is fine, and if you are getting to the point where the money is better and your bankroll is much bigger then kudos to you. But in my opinion being what is considered to be a full time pro means supporting yourself and not living off others due to lack of money.

    All this means is, you're going in the right direction. Aspire to be more and at least try to achieve it. In any job, if you cannot make any measurable improvements in your salary or quality of life over a few years time, its a good idea to move on to a better plan. If anyone dedicates their full time to playing BJ, and still keeps the recreational attitude of all I need to do is practice and go count cards in the casino, they will most likely fail, or fall into the life of a grinder. I do more than just make enough to live on playing this game. Just eeking out an existence would not be satisfying to me. There are too many people that are unfortunate in this country that have no choice in the matter at the moment. But given the opportunity I'm sure they would jump at the chance to make a better way in life. In my opinion so should anybody, including professional BJ players.
  2. Bojack

    I have just recently read the posts made by BoJack, mainly because of information given to me by someone I respect very much.

    I am very impressed by BoJack and have to agree with all he writes, there is no BS or Bluster or Fantastic claims and he is dead on in this thread.

    It is a pleasure and an education when you do indeed come across a person of this caliber and he decides to share with you his thoughts and knowledge.


  3. Finn Dog

    Finn Dog Well-Known Member

    Black Level Solo Pros?

    There's been some great inspirational posts written here about stepping up in class by some great BJ minds (mine excluded naturally)...but does anyone have any first-hand knowledge of any solo pro who's still able to bet black in today's environment--or is that dream now in the history books as has been alluded to?
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2009
  4. kewljason

    kewljason Well-Known Member

    I thank you Bojack for your post. You are indeed an inspiration to some of us small time counters (grinders) working our way up. Just to correct a few things you stated or guessed at concerning my situation. I was kicked out of the house by my stepfather on my 18th birthday, which is why at age 20 and 21, I was working a very low level job supporting myself rather than attending college. (no, Prince Dragon it was not pizza delivery) Yes I was paying my own way, and fully supporting myself off that modest income. I wish I had a bankroll larger than $5000 to begin with but, it didn't work out that way, so I did the best I could and made barely enough money to support my self, and yes I do fully support myself. I have not "lived off others" since the day I turned 18. At that level it is difficult to get by, let alone build much of a bankroll, which is why it has taken 5 years for my bankroll to reach 30K. I am now able to spread green to black and hopefully the bankroll growth will progress a bit quicker. I tell my story, only to point out that why yes, It would have been great to start my career with a substantial BR and make 100K per year, not everybody is in the position to begin that way. Rest assured though, I will get there! But in the mean time I've been, and continue to be a grinder. As I have stated, I have higher aspirations, however, for those that are comfortable grinding away for a modest living permanately or supplementing their retirement, I see nothing wrong with that. It's admirable. Far superior to government subsidies.
  5. kewljason

    kewljason Well-Known Member

    I almost forgot to announce my candidacy for grinders union president. Please send your campaign contributions and union dues promptly! :laugh:
  6. shadroch

    shadroch Well-Known Member

    There is a great post from a former doubter of BoJacks veracity on the Hit or Stand forum. It makes for great reading.
  7. Bojack1

    Bojack1 Well-Known Member

    Congratulations to you, I wish you the best.

    Just to make something clear on my point about grinders at a pro level. If thats what someone is comfortable doing and its not hurting anybody, great, enjoy. My issue comes with the blanket statement that grinding out a living playing is the ONLY way it can be done. That is false, and based on very limited opinion.
  8. kewljason

    kewljason Well-Known Member

    yes, That is just flash's opinion. I'd still like to know where he gets his figures concerning number of AP's operating. I think his figure is way off.
  9. fifth

    fifth Member

    Probably... How can someone know how many pro players are out there
  10. shadroch

    shadroch Well-Known Member

    By gaining access to Max Rubins super secret list of invitees to his BJ Ball.
  11. Tarzan

    Tarzan Banned

    Comparing apples to avacados

    I know it appears to be a "let's pick on Flash" theme here but a few things. Flash is someone that digs factual data from places and likes being informed and having that library of references. I tend to think he is right about the number of professional players out there but also what is the criteria you are going by to be considered a "professional player". Flash's income is due to his part time play... he plays less hours than me, he is a little more laid back about putting in a full time schedule which would explain his income. He is a knowledgeable black chip sort of player. He has the bankroll to play much higher stakes than me as I have seen him in action and I have a fairly hefty bankroll backing me. The only reason my average income might be more than his is because of the longer, grueling hours I put in.

    In all my years of playing thousands of hours of blackjack in many places you know how many bona fide counters that I have run into among thousands of people first hand? Perhaps four... maybe five. Out of these 4 or 5 out of thousands of people how many of them were full time players making their living playing blackjack for an extended period of time? I'm not sure but even if it was all 4 or 5 of them, I have seen few other counters playing at a professional level. I HAVE seen novice counters that were sort of "missing a few pieces to the puzzle" though.

    I talked about one novice counter that I had a conversation with in a casino one day, he was talking to someone about "the count" and blah blah blah so I started talking to him a bit. I posted about it on here calling him a "lamb to the slaughter" and caught critcism like I was picking on the basic hi-lo system or something or other. NO! I was picking on his strategy and the games he was willing to overbet his bankroll on! As soon as he began talking about his bet spreads, the games he played (such as 6to5 single deck, super fun 21, OTHER games such as roulette and 3 card poker), I knew he was no professional and a part time "want to be". He made such statements as "Oh, I love 6to5 single deck!" When I asked about the insurmountable HA due to the 6to5 payout he said "Well, it's not like I get that many blackjacks anyway... blah blah blah..." (He talked on to say some additional ridiculous things). I know this guy is out there right now, babbling to someone about what a hotshot expert blackjack player he is... Uhm... are you including this guy with your grouping of professionals?hahahaaaa Gosh, I hope not. Does the ROR posterchild kid that turned $20,000 into over $100,000 in a few months qualify as one of your multitude of pros out there? I saw an Asian gentleman the other day turn about $2000 into roughly $10,000 all in about a half an hour using a weird sort of positive progression betting format, betting huge money regardless of the tanked/poor count (he obviously wasn't counting)... he made big bucks! He is far from a professional though and I hope he has other sources of income for when the inevitable occurs. Hell, when I really think about it, I see darn few players that even adhere to basic strategy of the masses of blackjack players out there. I have or know of no factual data on just how many professional players there really are but I know what I see out there in my day to day operations over a very long period of time.
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2009
  12. shadroch

    shadroch Well-Known Member

    How would you even spot a pro? If you could spot him, so can the casino.
    In the thread where a doubter becomes a believer in Bojack, the doubter writes about the poor misguided player who is putting out big bets at all the wrong times, taking cards when he should be staying, yet somehow winning.
    The writer is actually feeling glad that this know-nothing player managed to cover his losses and leave with a profit, until Bojack1 reveals himself in an utterly classy way.
    `Pros are hard to spot,but there are plenty out there.
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2009
  13. BJ Ball.vs. BJ BASH

    Max has his "BJ Ball", this site has it's "BJ BASH". The only difference is at the "BASH" you won't see an attendee walk in with starched pressed levis, wearing alligator skin cowboy boots and a Buxom Blonde on each arm :laugh:

  14. ihate17

    ihate17 Well-Known Member

    I hopw you were kidding here

    Though Rubin has a reputation for not outing blackjack players, I hold him suspect.
    There was his testimony years ago about an instance at the Trop
    There is his working for the darkside in California currently.

    Perhaps I am a bit paranoid, but Rubin does not have my name.

  15. johndoe

    johndoe Well-Known Member

    There goes my cover.
  16. shadroch

    shadroch Well-Known Member

    Have you ever known me to be serious? Max has my name, he just doesn't see fit to include me in the party. I'm pretty sure its out of jealousy.

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