Playing Craps as Cover

[MountainMan]

I play in the same local casino frequently. I feel the need to appear more like a typical gambler. I'm considering playing craps on occasion when I wong out, strictly for cover. If I played only pass line and come bets with odds and didn't play any goofy bets that carry a high house edge I believe it would be affordable cover. I'm curious whether others do the same. MM

 

[ChefJJ]

If you're playing for cover, you could drop the Odds to reduce variance and extend your time at the table. There's pros for, and cons against the advice I just gave you.

My 2 cents...best of luck! :joker:

 

[alwayssplitaces]

Actually, the odds bet would increase variance but lower house edge. But it would look like you're betting a lot of money if you take full odds.

But you don't even have to play, you can just bet about $200 total on pass and place bets the first roll when the pit boss is watching to enter your average bet, then just stand at the table and collect comps. If the craps table is near the blackjack pit, be excited and loud enough to be noticed by the pit boss.

Then again, there is a way to beat craps with dice control, and there are some people who make a living off that, so if you're already "red hot", playing craps is not that great of a cover. Roulette is a better cover, albeit more costly, since it's thought to be unbeatable, and you can use a phony system to show that you vary your bets wildly at any game.

 

[ChefJJ]

Actually, the odds bet would increase variance but lower house edge. But it would look like you're betting a lot of money if you take full odds.

Taking full odds may not necessarily be good "cover" since it is typically a savvy player move, and most always won't get you any comp value.

But there are always exceptions to things, and like I alluded to before there's usually a con to each pro.

good luck :joker:

 

[SleightOfHand]

What about poker? At the casino I play at, the poker room print players cards with "WPT Championship blah blah" that when given to the floorperson, they assume I am playing BJ to get money back or double up or something or other.

 

[creeping panther]

Mm

I play in the same local casino frequently. I feel the need to appear more like a typical gambler. I'm considering playing craps on occasion when I wong out, strictly for cover. If I played only pass line and come bets with odds and didn't play any goofy bets that carry a high house edge I believe it would be affordable cover. I'm curious whether others do the same. MM

If they gotcha, they gotcha, and no other play will change their mind

CP

 

[aslan]

Sounds like a good way to lose all the EV you worked so hard to gain. Do your camo at the BJ table, or take up full pay VP. Playing craps as cover is worse than just playing blackjack with basic strategy only (-1%+ versus -.5%). There are plenty of ploppies who only play blackjack; for my money, I can't think of a good reason to play other games for cover.

 

[moo321]

I probably wouldn't play craps to protect any straight counting game. If there was something else to protect... still might not do it.

 

[MountainMan]

Playing craps as cover is worse than just playing blackjack with basic strategy only (-1%+ versus -.5%).

With full 10x odds the house advantage is .18% on place and come bets.
I know the big issue would be the wide variance. If I sit and play the negative decks I would be giving them at least that small advantage.

 

[moo321]

With full 10x odds the house advantage is .18% on place and come bets.
I know the big issue would be the wide variance. If I sit and play the negative decks I would be giving them at least that small advantage.

Well, the house advantage is like 1.4% on the table min bet you're going to make. Adding odds to that just increases your variance, it doesn't change the value of that bet you made.

 

[MountainMan]

Well, the house advantage is like 1.4% on the table min bet you're going to make. Adding odds to that just increases your variance, it doesn't change the value of that bet you made.

Very true, but you wouldn't look like much of a gambler, the purpose of the cover, with a $5 bet.

 

[lovethespaniard]

I never play any game in a casino but full pay VP and blackjack.

 

[CORed]

Actually, the odds bet would increase variance but lower house edge. But it would look like you're betting a lot of money if you take full odds.

But you don't even have to play, you can just bet about $200 total on pass and place bets the first roll when the pit boss is watching to enter your average bet, then just stand at the table and collect comps. If the craps table is near the blackjack pit, be excited and loud enough to be noticed by the pit boss.

Then again, there is a way to beat craps with dice control, and there are some people who make a living off that, so if you're already "red hot", playing craps is not that great of a cover. Roulette is a better cover, albeit more costly, since it's thought to be unbeatable, and you can use a phony system to show that you vary your bets wildly at any game.

The odds bet is the best bet on the craps table; it's worth nothing. The odds bet decreases the house edge expressed as a percentage of your total bet. It changes the house edge in dollars not at all, but does, of course, increase your variance. A ten dollar pass line bet has an expected loss of about 14 cents. A ten dollar pass line bet with a twenty dollar odds bet behind it has an expected loss of about 14 cents.

 

[CORed]

I play in the same local casino frequently. I feel the need to appear more like a typical gambler. I'm considering playing craps on occasion when I wong out, strictly for cover. If I played only pass line and come bets with odds and didn't play any goofy bets that carry a high house edge I believe it would be affordable cover. I'm curious whether others do the same. MM

As with any form of cover, be careful. To much cover and you won't look like an advantage gambler, because you won't be one.

 

[blackjack avenger]

Time and ROR

Cuts your EV greatly due to loss of time and negative ev

Do some try to justify negative action as camo?

:joker::whip:

 

[FLASH1296]

CREEPING PANTHER is fully correct.

Casino do not care in the slightest if you shoot craps.

Playing "other games for cover" is a myth.

I once was trespassed after winning $1,200 at BJ
right after losing an embarrassing amount at craps.

Also: You cannot bet large for a few rolls and then relax into little or no
betting and expect to be rated at all. The Pit Boss will either not rate you at all
or will enter an average bet as some absurdly low amount and reduce your play
time to nearly nothing as well, so that you will have a single comp dollar as your reward.
They do not want you taking up a place at their crap table. Simple.

Furthermore "dice control", while once possible, for the devoted practitioner,
is now a historic artifact; as nearly all casinos resurfaced their tables to have
ultra hard surfaces; and most new tables are generally 14' long, not 12'.

Finally, remember that only your line bet counts toward your average bet, and anyone
who bets large on the Pass/Don't Pass as opposed to taking the "Free Odds" is a fool.
As such CRAPS is a poor game for generating a high Player Rating tp earn comps.

 

[bigplayer]

I play in the same local casino frequently. I feel the need to appear more like a typical gambler. I'm considering playing craps on occasion when I wong out, strictly for cover. If I played only pass line and come bets with odds and didn't play any goofy bets that carry a high house edge I believe it would be affordable cover. I'm curious whether others do the same. MM

Generally the smaller and less sophisticated the casino is the more effective it is. That said, regardless the casino if you're a threat and most of your action is at blackjack playing craps won't help you. There are better ways to use other games to help your meta-game. For example occasionally instead of wonging out to the bathroom, sit down at a CSM table for 10 minutes and use a very wide hunch bet scheme or go to Roulette and play a few spins then watch for 2 or 3 spins play one more spin and leave. I think craps players have an image of being wise guys whereas using other games (even Baccarat) will make you look much more stupid...even with very short sessions. The key is you want surveillance to be watching you before you move to the stupid game...not the other way around. (If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is there to hear it does it make a sound?).

It's also important to have strict limits and reasons why you might do this otherwise you may not be an AP anymore.

 

[zoomie]

Good Advice Here

As usual, there is lots of good advice in this thread. Playing craps for cover is:

1. BOR-ING.
2. Bad -EV.
3. High variance if you take odds, and taking odds accomplishes nothing for comps.
4. Not going to fool anyone. Like CP said, if they gotcha . . .
5. A waste of valuable time you could devote to BJ at another store.

Just my two cents, recognizing that at least one respected published author disagrees

 

[aslan]

CREEPING PANTHER is fully correct.

Casino do not care in the slightest if you shoot craps.

Playing "other games for cover" is a myth.

I once was trespassed after winning $1,200 at BJ
right after losing an embarrassing amount at craps.

Also: You cannot bet large for a few rolls and then relax into little or no
betting and expect to be rated at all. The Pit Boss will either not rate you at all
or will enter an average bet as some absurdly low amount and reduce your play
time to nearly nothing as well, so that you will have a single comp dollar as your reward.
They do not want you taking up a place at their crap table. Simple.

Furthermore "dice control", while once possible, for the devoted practitioner,
is now a historic artifact; as nearly all casinos resurfaced their tables to have
ultra hard surfaces; and most new tables are generally 14' long, not 12'.

Finally, remember that only your line bet counts toward your average bet, and anyone
who bets large on the Pass/Don't Pass as opposed to taking the "Free Odds" is a fool.
As such CRAPS is a poor game for generating a high Player Rating tp earn comps.

You're right about the lack of cover that craps or other games provide for your blackjack play. Surveillance may view you in several different ways, one of which is "an AP at blackjack who is coincidentally a sucker at craps." You'll still get the tap.

There is no assumption in the gambling world that AP means universal 'wise' guy. APs at one gamble are often suckers at another. And if you lose very little at craps and win lots at blackjack, your cover isn't worth a dime. If the casino can't ID you from your blackjack play alone, they cannot ID you period. Kudos to you! Adding some sucker play will not necessarily build your ploppy image, but simply make you look like a ploppy with more than one weakness, that's all.

One good way to size up surveillance is to put yourself in their place. If you were the eye and thought a customer was an AP at blackjack, what would you do? Would you count his games and nail him, or would you say to yourself, "Even though he beat us for $5,000 at blackjack, he must be okay because he's playing craps?" Don't be absurd. If they suspect you at blackjack, and find you to be a potential threat, their next logical step is to analyze your blackjack play, and they can do it by replaying the tapes-- they don't even have to wait for you to play again.

Like has been said forever and ever on these threads, you have two choices-- hit and run and don't return for a while, or play under the radar, which can give you some longevity, results vary.

 

[playerwh]

How about mini baccarat and betting on the bank? Many of you guys know better than I do the math on that one - just a suggestion. Hey, no reference to "ploppies" or a "store" or other gratuitous jargon!